Healthcare Pros Blast Health Plan From Oregon's Capitol Steps (VIDEO)

(SALEM, Ore.) - Oregon doctors rallied on the capitol steps against President Obama's Healthcare Bill Saturday.

The healthcare professionals and activists are opposed to the current health reform bill in the U.S. Senate, so they gathered on the capitol steps Saturday to state many points against the plan.

Dr. Erik Swensson of McMinnville said, "I think there are defenite reforms that have to be made in the healthcare system, but not the present one Congress is looking at."

Doctors like Frank Rosenbloom in Oregon, say evidence exists to show how government run healthcare operates, "We have plenty of evidence to see what happens with centralized healthcare. We can look at the United Kingdom, we can look at Canada, it's a disaster."

Counter protesters at the event say claims like that are off track and wrong, citing instead what they see as immense success with the programs in Canada and the UK.

Activist Emily Blumenauer compared socialized healthcare for a nation, to programs for the poor.

"We rely on government welfare, let's show how this system is actually, falsely working".

She continued, "We're already in debt, and we don't need healthcare to put us into any further debt and these aren't the solutions we need."

Counterprotesters any Americans attribute the nation's massive debt to a needless and failed war in Iraq.

Dr. Juan Gigena of McMinnville, is originally from Argentina. He agrees with the anti-Obama crowd in that he sees a future of failure under this plan to bring healthcare to all Americans. "It doesn't work, I'm afraid it won't work for this country, these people."

It is a fact that healthcare reform is a threat to insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. Many doctors are large recipients of the pharma company's proceeds, and there is no question that reforming healthcare for all Americans would be a blow to the insurance companies. Most of these doctors say it just isn't a good idea at this time.

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charles brooks December 18, 2009 8:00 pm (Pacific time)

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Thomas November 25, 2009 7:20 pm (Pacific time)

Daniel here is an update analysis in contrast to what your assessment is. Please consider that crime is something all of us Americans and Canadians want to reduce, especially those crimes that most touch the majority of our citizens and adversely impact our quality of life. The below data is from your government and from our FBI. In all of Canada (2006) the violent crime rate is "951" per 100,000. In all of the United States the national violent crime rate is "466.9" per 100,000. That means that the violent crime rate in America is less than one half of Canada's, or just 49% of their total. In the property crime area, Canada's crime rate is "3,588" per 100,000. In America the property crime rate is "3,263.5" per 100,000. Once again the American rate is lower than that of our neighbors to the north. When you evaluate one's overall quality of life, property crimes like theft of ID, stolen cars and burglary hits most people. Violent crimes like assault also statistically effects most people than the most violent crime of murder, which is most often a crime in urban areas here in the states, but yes, all crimes are found all over America. It is a fact that outside of urban areas one is safer statistically. Just the same you are much safer here than in Canada from suffering both a property crime, by less than one half of the Canadian rate, and also less likely of being a victim of a violent crime. Note: In the Canadian province of Alberta the violent crime rate is 1,101 per 100,000. In the U.S. it is an average of 466.9 per 100,000. In Oregon (2007) it is 287.6 per 100,000 or just 26% of Alberta's rate. Daniel it's unfortunate that you have such ill will for my country as evidenced by your writing, but I'm sure you would also most likely be displeased if people just cherry-picked negative things about your country and ignored no doubt the majority of Canada's positve attributes. You can choose to augment whatever you like, I guess in that regard it shows just how tolerant our 1st Amendment is for both our citizens and those foreigners (and domestics) who have difficulty with our success, and our ability at problem-solving.

It’s not that I have ill will toward your country, I just have ill will toward what the United States has come to represent in the world. And I am far from alone in expressing this sentiment. You sound like one of those people who can’t understand why not everyone loves America. Read my current piece continuing to compare the U.S. and Canada and if you wish to respond rationally to the facts, I’ll be willing to engage you.

Thomas November 25, 2009 2:02 pm (Pacific time)

Daniel, America is made up of 50 different states and we have this thing called "states rights" in our Constitution, which in effect states that everything that is not set forth as an enumerated federal power, is a state power/right. We are 50 different political units. There in Canada you also have your different provinces and it is unfortunate that you do not have something as sophisticated as our Constitution, but then we had the most exceptional people writing ours. Your government entitity that compares to our U.S Justice Department/FBI, breaks down your crime rates by province along with subsets from that. Our states are quite different and our voting patterns as well as our crime rates reflect that. I chose to break it down as you see in my 11:24 am post. The data speaks for itself. It is not my intention to mislead but to show the wide range of criminal statistics as per location, whether that be by state and/or province in Canada. My statement that those in Oregon, where Salem-News.com is based, are far more safer here than where you are is correct. The bottom line is immediate safety for my loved ones, and feel most people feel the same. I could easily pick and combine different states and show a population larger than Canada's and still show a lower property crime rate than all of Canada. The murder rate would be quite close. Would you be interested in why there is such a range of crime in different locations here and in Canada Daniel? You may see some common causal variables in different locations in Canada, chiefly in urban areas. Another thing that was pointed out below was the very clear fact that locations with high gunownership were far more safer than those area's where politico's are violating the 2nd Amendment as per recent Supreme Court rulings. Note: In Vermont you do not need a CHL to carry and they have one of the lowest gun crime rates. Go figure?! How's that compare to Canada? Also are you familiar with survival rates from the leading causes of death here and Canada?

Thomas. You can do all the demographic gerrymandering you want. My conclusion is straightforward. The murder rate in the U.S. is 5.8 compared to 1.83 in Canada. Only one third the U.S. rate. (WHO statistics) Canadians are safer from being murdered than Americans. Yes or no?

BTW I find it insulting that you would suggest that we don't have something as "sophisticated" as your constitution. You come across as one of those arrogant Americans who think America is God's gift to mankind, and the rest of us lower types should be bowing down in obeisance.

You said that America has 50 states. America actually has 51 states. The 51st is the State of Denial.

Thomas November 25, 2009 11:24 am (Pacific time)

Comparing crime rates between Canada and America can be quite misleading as I shall demonstrate. Earlier Daniel Johnson provided in an article some crime data comparisons, well let's take a better look. Canada's property crime rate ranges (2006) from a low of 5,684 per 100,000 in the Ontario province to "13,711" per 100,000 in Saskatchewan. Our range here (2007) is a low of 1,892 per 100,000 in New Hampshire to a high of 4,414 per 100,000 in Arizona. Our highest is lower than Canada's lowest. In Oregon it is 3,526 per 100,000, i.e., over 2,000 per 100,000 lower than Canada's lowest. The highest murder rate in Canada is in the Saskatchewan province at 4.1 per 100,000. In the states we have a low of 1.1 per 100,000 in New Hampshire to a high of 9.8 per 100,000 in Maryland. Of course we have some cities where murder rates are through the roof, e.g. , it is 30.8 per 100,000 in Washington DC. These area's with high murder rates have very tight gun regulations and those states that have high gun ownership have the lowest gun crime rates. In Oregon the murder rate is 1.9 per 100,000. Oregon has over 115,000 people with Concealed Handgun Licenses and one of the lowest murder rates in the country. Note: In Alberta where Daniel Johnson is from the murder rate is 2.8 per 100,000. Suffice those living in Oregon are less likely to be a victim of a murder or a property crime than those who live where Daniel Johnson lives in the Alberta province. Facts and statistics can often be used to misinform depending how they are presented. We have 50 states and all are very similar and all very different. Look for causal variables for a more thorough analysis.

You’re gerrymandering the statistics, Thomas. To make valid comparisons, you have to compare apples to apples. Talking about the murder rate in Oregon or Washington, D.C. and Saskatchewan or Alberta, just muddies the water. My statement compares America as a national entity to Canada as national entity and it is undeniable that an American is more likely to be murdered by another American, than a Canadian (or Briton or Japanese) will be murdered by one of their own fellow citizens. America is a violent nation. No arguing away from that. The causal variables are not part of the argument.

Henry Ruark November 25, 2009 9:37 am (Pacific time)

Hadley: Re yr inquiry on my polling experience, answer is YES. Happens I did ten-year annual survey, built similarly to polls and with essential poll-type queries, in three areas, two in education, one in corporate annual reports, latter only one of its kind ever done. All were "paid for" and were published in then-leading magazine covering learning media and communications. All were widely cited, including both national dailies and the wire services then. Your naivete re polls is obvious: That is their business, their product, what they sell, how they make huge profits...do you really believe there is quality control involved ? Re citation-by-others, that use by major media has long been questioned and under close examination, esp, on overall record of poll impact through both imperfections in desig, deliberate distortion and perversion, and overall accuracy record. So what else is new in your understanding of simple media usage ?? Re YOUR queries to D.J. on his motivations, reflecting on his psychological status, it happens that is one of major "defensive reactions" cited in many propaganda studies, there understood to mirror personal unconscious insecurities. So you resent sharply-stated views of failures in "American exceptionalism" ? What else is new ? Have been hearing same old line ever since '50s, when first began study in this area. What's your working bkgrnd, sir ? Where did you take any advanced degree ? In what area of study ? Did youthen work in that area ? For how long ? WHere ? What, if anything, did you publish for that field ? What yrs of experience do you bring us here ? Where are your writings in this area of study published ? By whom ? SOLD by editor-choice, or simply perpetrated by the sponsored publication ? You hide behind single-name with no record of your "right to speak". DJ lays it on line in his STAFF section herein,so we know his qualifications as source...Can you do the same ? Until you do, you are simply masked man speaking from work done by others, with no real basis for credibility or our continued attention here.

stephen November 24, 2009 7:26 pm (Pacific time)

After further consideration, and more reading, the proposed health care legislation works for me. I have learned how to keep healthy. I will pay the fine for not getting insurance. Then, if something drastic does happen to me, I will join the group, since pre-conditions are accepted. This plan actually works for me. What it does to the economy and others is a different story, but it works for me. :-) The lobbying insurance agencies dont like the lower fine amount. I dont blame them. And I am not worried about the threat of goin to jail. The prisons are full and it would cost them more to put me in jail than it would to simply let me see a doctor.

Lyle November 24, 2009 6:25 pm (Pacific time)

I went to the links the poster Hadley provided. WOW!! What an eyeopener, I thought Canada had a smooth running health program, just the opposite. It is strange to go to a U.S. news site an see someone writing all this anti-American crap. Like who cares about this persons opinion? Do any mainstream Canadian publications publish this guys writings? How about here in the states? Any other site besides this one? He should come down here and talk to us eye to eye. Won't happen, this is the type of person who does his sniping from long range. He has no meaningful audience, never has, never will. From the below links, it appears that the only way the Canadian healthcare system will survive is by going the private insurance route. It's decaying quickly and they have medical doctors leaving faster than they are being replaced, so that's it, game over. Maybe you Canadians should maybe consider a national mandatory birth control policy and reduce your growing patient load caused by all that unhealthy life styles you have.

The Acton Institute. A fundamentalist religious organization. But then, many Americans, obviously such as yourself, tend to treat religion as superior to science and objective research/reporting.

But, if you don't believe me, read Fareed Zakaria in the January 9/09 Newsweek. He says: “Canada has been remarkably responsible over the past decade or so. It has had 12 years of budget surpluses, and can now spend money to fuel a recovery from a strong position. The government has restructured the national pension system, placing it on a firm fiscal footing, unlike our own insolvent Social Security. Its health-care system is cheaper than America's by far (accounting for 9.7 percent of GDP, versus 15.2 percent here), and yet does better on all major indexes. Life expectancy in Canada is 81 years, versus 78 in the United States; "healthy life expectancy" is 72 years, versus 69. American car companies have moved so many jobs to Canada to take advantage of lower health-care costs that since 2004, Ontario and not Michigan has been North America's largest car-producing region.”

President Obama, in addressing a joint session of Congress in September, called on lawmakers to protect those “who live every day just one accident or illness away from bankruptcy.” He added: “These are not primarily people on welfare. These are middle-class Americans.” No one in Canada has ever gone bankrupt and lost their home because of medical expenses. Read: “From the Hospital to Bankruptcy Court”— http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/25/health/policy/25bankruptcy.html?hp

Hadley November 24, 2009 2:39 pm (Pacific time)

Henry Ruark if I am considered an amateur by you for referencing a poll, then I guess all those professional pollsters and the people who hire them ranging from politicians to private businesses didn't get your memo. For your information, it is the "trend" that most look at polls for, which includes the internals, i.e. , the questions that provide the real info for these professionals who design and interpret polls for their clients. Have you ever designed a national poll that you were paid for? If so, are you still involved doing that kind of work? Thanks. By the way here is a recent Gallup poll that shows the internals I was talking about above. Can you see just how critical these are to the ongoing national legislation and for future elections? http://www.gallup.com/poll/124484/Obama-Approval-Slide-Finds-Whites-Down-39.aspx Daniel Johnson I don't believe I'm being defensive, but it does seem strange to have some Canadian degrading my country such as you. Who are you and what are your real reasons for doing your tirades against us Americans. Why should people care about your opinions concerning how bad we are? It does sound like jealousy to me. Maybe this is a cat people thing? Why are you so unhappy that you feel the need to strike out? I say for those who want to see just what is going on with Canadian healthcare go to these links: http://blog.acton.org/archives/2220-Will-Socialized-Health-Care-in-the-US-Kill-Canadians.html http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#canada

I went to the link you posted and there was nothing there—just like your apparent argument. If you think I’m unhappy and striking out at America, then that’s your internal apprehension. In previous posts many people asked me about Canada or innocently expressed misleading understandings. So, I undertook to write about Canada, comparing it to America where, of course, the audience is. I deal in facts. If you find something incorrectly stated, please draw it to my attention. The idea of demographics and murder rates is a bagatelle. No matter the demographics, Americans kill more of their fellow citizens than any other nation. Higher infant mortality. Lower life expectancy. Highest incarceration rate in the world—even higher than China. I don’t make this stuff up. You think I might be jealous of that? Give your head a shake. Just to give you a heads-up. If my Canadian Comparison upset you, wait until Part 2 which will be posted in the next day or so. You ain’t seen nothing yet.

BTW. You still haven't addressed my question about how the country is going to pay for your wonderful, utopian health care system which is going to put Canada to shame.

Henry Ruark November 24, 2009 11:41 am (Pacific time)

To all: Major additional point: Hadley's long list --built on what some questionable sources say is felt by many-- fails to accept fact of life that our Constitution requires elected Congress, our representatives, to decide on basis of fact and study what is best for all of us as commonweal...NOT succumb to obviously paid/for AND dollar-driven propaganda and corporate pressures. His stance depends solely on what questionable sources SAY is majority opinion. Even if true, it doth not follow that Congress should cater to any such temporary appearances...we fought a bloody Civil War to nail down that principle !!-- decision made on moral, conscientious and commonsense grounds. We also now have horrendous example of Iraq attack into which we fell by intent of neocons using every possible measure of malign propaganda (read: outright flat-lies) to take us into unnecessary and irrational dangers never intended by those misguided then into false "public opinion". Give Founders credit for the insistence on our governance system working on heavyweight exploration by elected persons we can chastise by vote. Need I point out, again, that it is open, honest, democratic here on this channel making this a foundation fount for precisely the potent proper kind of honest,open,democratic public opinion ?

Henry Ruark November 24, 2009 11:16 am (Pacific time)

Hadley: Only amateurs put reliance on ANY ongoing poll such as Rasmussen. What it shows may be valid for its time, place, and with restrictions never mentioned when-cited...which is why it gets used. But even if temporarily valid, change is sure to happen rapidly as the events change. Fact is that other polls, at least as significant as this one, show precisely opposite results for real U.S.public opinion, with literally many thousands of examples cited as to why "system" is broken' is known to be "unsustainable" on costs; is actually costing us lives of citizens-deprived; is creating multiplying hardships for many others while driving some millions closer to their bankruptcy every day. Are there problems involved in reform ? You Betcha...and we should have begun to solve them in Teddy Roosevelt's time, or FDR's, or Johnson's, or Clinton's...and we now pay heavy penalty for neglect and ennui and inattention while expanding personal lifestyle with costly cosmetic surgery and best/care for $$/toters and free/riders on what was once-reasonable company-paid benefits in lieu of salary adjustments otherwise unavoidable. (Historic documentation available.) Rationality will finally win and rule, as in other American eras, which was what Churchill meant when he stated that U.S. always "got it right, but insisted on trying everything else first.." --part of our American "exceptionalism" on negative side. (Quote paraphrased.) When will we ever learn ? Some will remain UNinformed, others MISinformed, and a few prey to those who malignly mistake facts of situation for their own private gain...as in unconscionable healthcare profits providing propaganda in tons for laissez-faire while millions face horrendous threat to life vs human right to healthcare --a right now well established for decades internationally, with every other civilized, and even some "developing", nations now on a better plan than we have been able to achieve by dollar-driven chase for more profits and less regulation. They working on their problems, too, but meanwhile very large majority receiving much more, at lower costs,than we can count on here...which is why we have 43.6 million NOW UNCOVERED for human right to health, in "world's richest nation". Do you contend we should now DO NOTHING ? See you "at the Second American Revolution", sure to come if we continue as rising costs absorb most of our national budget...which is an undeniable fact.

Hadley November 24, 2009 9:30 am (Pacific time)

There are all kinds of sources out there that substantiate what I wrote in my below post. For how America feels about the current healthcare legislation, here is a highly qualified professional source: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform - then in addition, all one has to do is type in "Canadian Healthcare Problems" in any search engine and there are plenty of news aricles that show current problems and most importantly provide a verifiable trend that does not look well for Canada. We in America will have a health program and it will be far superior to what Canada has, we are always many steps ahead of your country. That is not myth, it is verifiable reality. You guys have some real problems, so why attack my country? Jealous?

You sound a little defensive. How are you going to pay for this wonderful health care? You have a national debt of $12 trillion, $39,000/capita, compared to Canada’s national debt of $450 billion or $15,000/capita. And we already have a national health system--have had for more than 40 years.

Henry Ruark November 24, 2009 9:12 am (Pacific time)

To all: One of oldest propaganda tricks in the trade is to couch a whole flood of ostensibly/sensible questions in unanswerable form, seeming to seek further truth while actually setting up a simply impossible-to-answer but seemingly very plausible set of points. The only possible treatment --wellknown to questioner shaping such a set !!--is full discussion with a flood of documentable detail, extremely difficult to achieve and almost always out of any possible time-available, or space in which to print the results... !! Here we have fine example in Hadley comment which friend Daniel has properly answered in only possible way: Ask an honest question if you seek an an honest answer. Sorry, documentation for the point made here re pattern so easily detected comes from a restricted source, but similar full,detailed,solid answers are found in a number of texts on propaganda as communication patterns: ID self to editor with working phone for my working list (around 20), small fee to compile (off the shelf !!) and print ($25.00), from 50 yrs work in this area of very now-too complex world !

Hadley November 24, 2009 8:13 am (Pacific time)

Hall's words are fine as far as words go but does the Canadian healthcare program have any plans in the works for helping your patients who come to the states for the healthcare they cannot get there? This can cause quite a burden for some Canadians who must liquidate assets to pay for American medical assistance (as per news reports), and considering that they pay Canadian taxes for care they do not receive in a timely basis does concern me. I see you claim Canada to be a caring society, then certainly you must have some of your top minds trying to find a solution to the above. I heard they are exploring the introduction of more private insurance carriers, is this true? In addition, what is happening in your growing doctor shortage area? Any solutions on the immediate horizon? Will the government allow non-MD's to start performing medical tasks above their capabilities? As most knowlegeable people know, the vast majority of Americans are happy with their health plans. I also do not know anyone who does not want healthcare available for all, and Canada using our resources does not help. Of course costs are starting to mount, but understandably we also know that a government take over will make things much worse. We know that because the government is not very successful running programs, especially in a cost efficient way. Most Americans, including myself and according to reputable polls want to see all people taken care of, but we need to do this intelligently. The Stimulus Bill had to be passed immediately to keep the unemployment rate below 8%, well it's now 10.2%. Thus we don't have a lot of confidence in what the government says coupled with it's actual performance. If you actually want to know Americans attitudes about healthcare, then there are abundant news/reporting resources available for you. My prayer is that we do a much better job than Canada, for while the Canadian patient can come here for healthcare, where do we go if we model a program after Canada's?

Give me facts that can be verified otherwise you're just spouting unsubstantiated mythology.

Henry Ruark November 24, 2009 8:03 am (Pacific time)

Re Stephen's smear on Marines on-duty, anyone see any response from him with source and documentation ? SO, as he suggests via tv still connecting him with the world at his own choice of report-and-image, just "turn him off" as credible source. Do you think he would ever have made-it as a Marine ?? Re OR/doctor-group stand on healthcare, simply see policy by their own very extensive national organizations, surely better equipped to make judgment on what is now fully demanded...and never forget there ARE those who profit from potent further extension of laissez-faire approach to our current "system".

Daniel Johnson November 24, 2009 3:00 am (Pacific time)

In my story "The Canadian Comparison" I wrote:

Supreme Court of Canada Justice Emmett Hall was the key architect in designing Canada’s medicare system in the 1960s. Asked to review it in the late 1970s, he said in his 1980 report:

“Canadians…as a society, are aware that the trauma of illness, the pain of surgery, the slow decline to death, are burdens enough for the human being to bear without the added burden of medical or hospital bills penalizing the patient at the moment of vulnerability. The Canadian people determined that they should band together to pay medical bills and hospital bills when they were well and income earning. Health services were no longer items to be bought off the shelf and paid for at the checkout stand. Nor was their price to be bargained for at the time they are sought. They were a fundamental need, like education, which Canadians could meet collectively and pay for through taxes.”

Canadians are, overall, a caring society. If you are an American, what in Hall’s statement do you find objectionable? Please stay with what Hall said in your response.

I genuinely wish to understand the American attitude about this.
.

Emily Blumenauer November 23, 2009 9:01 pm (Pacific time)

I am thoroughly disgusted at the personal slant portrayed by this quote, "We rely on government welfare, let's show how this system is actually, falsely working." This was referencing an example of the option given to a friend in Canada who was told he needed to wait 6 months for a hernia operation....his only option was to quit his job as he couldn't work, and move his family of four in with his mother-in-law and go on government welfare and all the while this "system" could claim it was working. Stop the Canadian invasion!

gp November 23, 2009 8:29 am (Pacific time)

Addendum to my comment regarding Argentine doctors. I should have said that I live in Argentina and so when I said here I meant Argentina and not the USA.

Ken Hadley November 23, 2009 7:48 am (Pacific time)

Stephen could you site some sources where my Marine brothers are guarding opium fields to help spread drugs around the world? These are the types of rumors that have no basis in fact that will cause serious morale injury to our men and women in uniform. The argument can be easily made that this contributes to their suicide rates by negatively impacting them. Do me a favor and get your facts straight before you put out more hurtful and erroneous comments. Back to healthcare and what it is doing to the Administration: "The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Monday shows that 28% of the nation's voters Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as President. Forty-one percent (41%) Strongly Disapprove giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of -13. For the first time in the Obama Administration, the Approval Index has been in negative double digits for nine straight days. Among men, the President’s Approval Index rating is -20. Among women, it is -7. Support for the health care plan proposed by the President and Congressional Democrats has fallen to a new low of 38%. Sixty percent (60%) of voters believe passage of the bill will lead to higher health care costs. The Presidential Approval Index is calculated by subtracting the number who Strongly Disapprove from the number who Strongly Approve. It is updated daily at 9:30 a.m. Eastern (sign up for free daily e-mail update). Updates are also available on Twitter and Facebook. Overall, 46% of voters say they at least somewhat approve of the President's performance. Fifty-three percent (53%) now disapprove."

gp November 23, 2009 5:30 am (Pacific time)

Two things: First, these people said "it won't work" but didn't say what would. Universal single payer would work. Of course this so called health care package is bogus. Secondly, the Argentine doctor puzzled me. Doctors in Argentina are payed far less than doctors in North America,even less than the well payed Canadian doctors who make a modest wage compared to US doctors. Argentina has more doctors per capita than any country in the world save Cuba. So the doctors here are in the profession because they are humanitarians. So as a spokesperson for US health care status quo, I would guess that Juan Gigena MD immigrated to the US for the pay not the climate. This seems to me to negate his use as a nonbiased spokesperson for health care reform.

Frances November 23, 2009 1:16 am (Pacific time)

Hey Drs....most of you won't give appts to people with no insurance. I'm 60, can't find a job. What am I supposed to do - die?

stephen November 22, 2009 8:13 pm (Pacific time)

I hope they settle down a bit. Postal Service = bankrupt medicare/medical etc = bankrupt war on drugs: failure war on poverty: failure war on terrorism = take away civil liberties. So lets give them our healthcare? ok, ranting time: I use to work with heroin addicts. It became too much for me, so no longer doing it. Especially when I learned that the marines are guarding opium fields in Afghanistan, that are now flooding many countries with cheap heroin. I cannot compete with this administration that lets this happen. I HAVE QUIT MY JOB. Obama is bush's third term. Time for REAL change, and it is a comin. Obama's lies are exposed, global warming hoax is exposed, the federal reserve bank is exposed. NOW? watch for another false flag attack such as 911.

Anonymouse November 22, 2009 5:20 pm (Pacific time)

I agree that every step made must be viewed. I just wished they would not take so much time. Or else they would end up the same as those who started it first. I beleive we are blessed with good, for we are given a chance to make things better...

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