School Dress Codes: A Need for Uniformity?

(SALEM, Ore.) - Neal Feldman recently published an opinion piece A Failing Grade for US Public Education on December 28th 2007 on Salem-News.com in which he lists a number of changes he believes would reverse trends "that have caused the U.S. to lose it place as a world education leader."

I'm sure that many readers share some or all of Neal's ideas or similar notions. Everyone is welcome to their opinion, of course. However, for such suggestions to be taken seriously they must be examined closely. I would like to make such an examination. Neal, however, makes so many criticisms of education that to respond to them all in-depth would require an article much too long for this format. With that in mind I'd like to write a series of responses focusing on one of his suggestions at a time.

Neal says, While not mandatory I would strongly like to see strict dress codes, if not school uniforms.

The fact is there already are dress codes in place in every school district I've worked for. Dress codes are developed by school boards and enforced (or not) by building principals. Usually these dress codes include bans against clothing bearing words or images relating to drug abuse, alcohol and tobacco, bans against racial and ethnic slurs, and bans of gang symbols. In fact, Leslie Middle School has a dress code in place which forbids students to wear shirts (excluding Leslie School shirts or sweat shirts) with any sort of logo, text or image on them whatsoever bigger than 2" x 2".

In the elementary school where I teach, when girls come to school wearing clothing which is too revealing their parents are called to bring a change of clothes. If no parent is at home, the student must pick something out of the lost and found to cover herself. It hasn't happened very often, but I personally have had boys wearing Joe Camel t-shirts either turn their shirts inside out or put another shirt over them.

Setting limits for what is acceptable in the classroom is fine, but if we are a free society why don't we grant our young people the simple freedom of choosing the clothes they would like to wear to school so long as they're making good decisions?

Neal says, Uniformity in dress reduces many distractions and other problems in schools.

I'm going to hold Neal to the same high standards he expects from schools. If a student wrote an essay for me which stated "uniformity in dress reduces many distractions and other problems in schools," I would reply, "How do you know that? What research are you basing your conclusions on? How does uniformity reduce distractions and how do you measure the results? What specifically are the other problems which uniforms would also solve? Be specific. Give examples." If you are going to make such a statement, you’ve got to be able to back it up.

I personally see uniforms as only a means to identify individuals as belonging to a specific group. Whether or not school uniforms provide students with a better learning experience in schools is controversial.

When in 1990 I was a student in Willamette University's Master of Arts in Teaching program, I recall a presentation done by one of my fellow students on school uniforms. The idea, he explained, promoted by some education administrators was that wearing a uniform changed a student’s frame of mind, made her more academically focused, decreased behavior problems.

Many schools in California and elsewhere imposed uniforms on their students. In many cases schools did experience a decrease in behavior problems and an increase in academic performance, but only for a while. According to the presenter, after a period of about three years behavior and academic measures returned to their previous levels or dropped below. (Unfortunately I don’t have a reference for this since it was a presentation by someone else some seventeen years ago.)

Why might that be? I would suggest it's a product of the Hawthorne Effect. What's the Hawthorne Effect? Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect gives an in-depth overview of the Hawthorne Effect for those who are interested, but in brief it might be that students' behavior and academic performance improved not because of school uniforms but because they were the subject of an experiment which measured their behavior and academic performance. The measurement and attention temporarily caused the improvements, not the uniforms themselves. To maintain positive results from the Hawthorne Effect the teacher must create new experiments each year. Does history support the idea that putting people into uniforms improves their behavior?

Some of the worst crimes committed against humanity have been committed by people wearing uniforms. The Nazis wore positively dashing uniforms, but their behavior wasn't anything we would want our students to emulate. Likewise some of the greatest acts of good have been also been performed by people wearing uniforms: doctors, nurses, clergy, police and firemen.

All this, I believe, confirms my earlier statement. Uniforms only identify the group to which an individual belongs. Uniforms do not change students' behavior in the long run.

I would like to see three uniforms, if that route is taken, provided to the student by the school. Any extras or replacements would be the responsibility of the family with funds made available to assist low income families in need in such circumstances.

Some educators believe that poor families especially would benefit from school uniforms. The case is made that poor students are ostracized for not wearing clothing which is fashionable. The feeling is that uniforms will level the playing field of fashion.

People that I've talked to who attended private schools where wearing uniforms was mandatory have told me that the rich always distinguished themselves by buying and wearing clothing which set them apart from everyone else. Everyone may be required to wear white shirts, blouses or sweaters, for example, but the well-to-do will buy and wear the most expensive white tops available and make sure everyone else knows it.

The logistics of providing students with three sets of uniforms becomes yet another burden for schools to shoulder.

What do you do when a student refuses to wear a uniform--especially when that student is a good student in every other way and has never worn objectionable clothing of any kind? What do you do when a family refuses to let their child wear a uniform because they feel that it restricts their freedom of expression? What do you do with students (often the most economically disadvantaged) who may attend four different schools each year, often in different states? Who's going to coordinate the distribution of uniforms for these students? Moreover, where is the money going to come from? Will a cash-strapped school district have to put off replacing outdated textbooks or technology for another year, or cut the library budget, in order to dress their students?

I'll finish with a quote from the abstract of an article in The Journal of Educational Research, entitled "The Effects of Student Uniforms on Attendance, Behavior Problems, Substance Use and Academic Achievement." members.tripod.com/rockqu/uniform.htm

"Our findings indicate that student uniforms have no direct effect on substance use, behavioral problems or attendance. A negative effect of uniforms on student academic achievement was found. These findings are contrary to current discourse on student uniforms."

Glen L. Bledsoe is a 4th grade teacher currently working for the Molalla River School District. He previously taught in the Salem-Keizer School District. Glen also has taught in the School of Education at Willamette University and is adjunct faculty at the University of Oregon. He is deeply interested in the uses and impact of technology in education. For two and a half years Glen wrote a series of monthly essays about the issues of technology and education for the National Education Association at NEA.org. Glen has also written for Today's OEA and NEA Today magazines, among others. He and his wife Karen are the authors of over seventeen books. Glen is better known as Leonardo to readers of Salem-news.com’s weekly comic, Nota Bene.

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Jefferson January 5, 2008 6:07 pm (Pacific time)

Glen Bledsoe this was a pretty good article considering the space limitations I assume you had. Note: Your explanation of the Hawthorne Effect was an excellent observation to make. Possibly during your years of teaching you have probably come to appreciate the saying: "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink." Graduate school coupled with experience generally provides a very insightful and sometimes humbling experience in the learning process. It's obvious for one poster below, this will never be a process that they will experience...

Neal Feldman January 5, 2008 3:44 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson - I provided all I am legitimately required to. Your turn to do the same. (not holding breath waiting for you to do so however). Ah well...

Neal Feldman January 5, 2008 3:43 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson - Oh I understand my environment just fine. I also see that you haven't the grammar skills to pass sixth grade by my standards. I suggest you choose the word 'taken' instead of 'took' for just one example. But all you do is further spew concepts you know nothing about (clearly) and ignore the facts extant that disprove your blind BS. So like I said before, can you or can you not show where school uniforms have been proven generally harmful to grades or attendance and can you disprove completely the examples of issues that school uniforms would mitigate or address completely that I pointed out? Not just yes, but if yes SHOW YOUR PROOF. Granted I'm asking you to do something completely outside what you have ever done (put up or shut up) but I have no doubts at all that you will again refuse to do so choosing instead your typical dishonest, delusional and ignorant ways. Ah well...

Jefferson January 5, 2008 12:36 pm (Pacific time)

Feldman possibly you can provide some comprehensive research in this matter? Valid research would be great, thanks buddy! Maybe the Oracle aka Henry/SFI can provide you some direction...

Jefferson January 5, 2008 9:21 am (Pacific time)

People what I offered feldman was an opprotunity to benefit from past research in this topical area that actually goes back long before he was born. Had Feldman took the time to realize that there are educator's that specialize in research in this area (this actually goes back pre-Plato, see philosophy of educational research in "Idealism" and clothing of student's, may take a little microfiche digging), then he would understand what I meant "...that he was simply plowing up old ground." It's unfortunate that some people (and they always seem to be those with a [very] limited education) will simply argue for the sake of arguing. Uniforms or regular street clothing in the overall research data does not indicate what is best or what is worse, there are an endless list of other causal variables. But what I have noticed, is that those from lower socio-economic backgrounds (usually a life long reality) coupled with limited educational backgrounds will prefer uniforms. Suffice, any information that challenges that preference will be rejected, which feldman has clearly acknowledged. Once again feldman, you simply do not understand your environment, and unlikely you ever will, unless you learn how to say these three words" I don't know! Ergo, then wisdom may begin to develop, unless of course a personality or mental disorder is omnipresent in the individual...

Henry Ruark January 5, 2008 5:44 am (Pacific time)

Latest here from you-know-who demand simple standard-phrase: "Flush it and fly away !"

Neal Feldman January 4, 2008 9:32 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson - Oh I see cut and past is still working for you... not a single original thought rattling around in your cobwebs to date I see. LOL. Again, you show me how school uniforms cause any harm to students. I have already listed specific distractions and harms they can mitigate or eliminate entirely. So if you are claiming they are harmful put up or shut up. What am I saying? You never put up and you certainly never shut up do you? You just make many posts from a position of intellectual cowardice, deceit, delusion and ignorance based bravado. You have yet to do otherwise. That is what seems to enrage you so much... your own transparency... how easy it is to see right through you and your BS. Rage on... your pathetic and feeble attempts continue to amuse as well as educate how one should not act (as you do) if one wants even the slightest bit of credibility. Ah well...

Jefferson January 4, 2008 6:17 pm (Pacific time)

Feldman your position on uniforms is really quite interesting, it really is...regarding perfomance and behavior results, have you bothered to cross-index the scores that have been done over time with the Wechsler and accompanied by observational assessments of the testee by the trained administrator of this test? It has been used by both public and private schools as well as home schooled kids (uniforms and regular street clothing). What's interesting about a longitutinal mega-analysis Feldman is that you get the big picture. Have you much of a background in these types of tests and analyses? If you had, then maybe you would understand that the empirical data has been available for quite sometime, many years in fact. May I suggest a course in Psychological Testing and Assessment, it may help you appreciate the research that has been done in this area and help you realize that you are simply plowing up old ground. Education is a marvelous thing Feldman... I would also suggest developing a background in Educational Research Methodologies...in fact I believe Western Oregon University may offer it as a graduate class, but maybe you could audit it, since you probably don't have the undergraduate background to get into the class, but if I vouch for you and you promise to pay attention in class and do all the reading assignments, maybe we can get you a seat, so to speak?

Neal Feldman January 4, 2008 3:25 pm (Pacific time)

Glen - My point is uniforms are not a panacea and its hardly a core requirement for improvement but I feel they can remove some harms and distractions. I've seen it. Ah well...

Glen January 4, 2008 2:58 pm (Pacific time)

Neal: I tend to agree with you. I'm unconvinced that wearing uniforms has long term effects on attendance and academic performance negative or positive. The study offers no theory as to why students wearing uniforms should do more poorly. There may be other negative variables linked to Catholic schools whose students wear uniforms (a teacher-centered rather than student-centered learning environment, for example) as you suggest, but that was beyond the scope of the study. My point remains that uniforms don't cause people to behave one way or the other and therefore aren't worth the bother. People wear uniforms because it identifies them as belonging to a group. Nothing more.

Neal Feldman January 4, 2008 12:42 pm (Pacific time)

Henry Ruark - I might suggest that with the premise as you stated (and I agree with) that 'education has failed' I have to wonder why the seemingly slavish devotion to those in that failed industry? From my position all these 'studies' 'peer reviewed' by those in the same industry is akin to Shrub having industry insiders in charge of the govt watchdog groups overseeing those very industries. Inbreeding of a sort. But even still the fact remains... the schools were not absolutely identical in every way. Such is impossible. Not just highly improbable but in fact impossible. And the study (so far as anyone has been able to point out) never manages to explain HOW or WHY the alleged sole insertion of school uniforms would adversely impact grades or attendance. They might as well have reported that the ambient temperature around the school was 3 degrees higher... they surely did not explain how school uniforms would have caused that either. So before you go touting studies make sure they actually prove what you want to claim they prove. Anyone can do a study. That does not impress me in the slightest. Ah well...

Henry Ruark January 4, 2008 7:46 am (Pacific time)

Neal, Len et al: Again, Len, "right on" re "you got to do your homework" even when studies reinforce what you may have reason to believe. General premise here is that education has failed, both its own purposes and the nation economically and socially. For reality-strikes on this, currently for 21st Century use, after "A Nation At Risk" study in Reagan era (where this attack began via neocon purposes); then the "America's Choice" study in 1990 (by bipartisan group of GOP/Dems) stressing "High Skills or Low Wages": "See with own eyes" "Schools as Scapegoats", in American Prospect, Oct. 07. By two noted Economic Policy Institute scholars --thus truly independent with no special-interest bias built-in --the theme is "Our increasing inequality and our competitiveness problems are huge--but they can't be laid at the door of our education system." This is one of first solid documentary items used in Op Ed upcoming; listed here to give all full-scope, and true early-shot access, for honest, open dialog-to-come. Do you ever encounter same honest "open it up" effort via any neocon effort, Nonentity or otherwise ??

Henry Ruark January 4, 2008 5:30 am (Pacific time)

To all: One never wins putting an unsupported persona opinion vs credibly complex studies done by experts and checked by full power of colleagues on all sides of the issue prior to publication in professional journals. That's why educational research is, albeit complex, understandable and workable to guide study and decision in any specific situation, so long as those in charge also take into account the possible differences in that situation. No one person can possibly "hit it right" simply by his unsupported insights, in such situations --which is why the system was built over the past century to meet precisely the demanding needs to really know and understand the realities involved. Precisely these same situations also have occurred in science, mathematics, psychology, even geography, and for educational purposes the research involved is also carried on in the same way --which has resulted in huge American gains in every field over the past century. That's part of the reason our corporations led the world for so long in the American Golden Age --until they were driven, by worldwide competing facility never faced before, to seek out any stock value gain in any way possible, even by slashing wages and exporting jobs to lowcost other nations. One has to "connect ALL the dots" in order to see the larger picture --of which our management of education is only one part. We have large problems in this society now --but the purported failure of our educational system is a neocon myth, promoted primarily to preserve special-interest and social/economic class differentials built by long and vigorous political action paid for in large part in the past 30 years by --you guessed for sure !--lush "corporate campaign contributions" to exert money-power over our democratic structure of governance.

Neal Feldman January 4, 2008 12:43 am (Pacific time)

Glen - I do not off hand dismiss the studies I merely point out that I seriously doubt that the different schools were absolutely identical in every way and nothing they presented answered the question WHY uniforms would decrease attendance. As the the studies done by uniform companies I guess that brings new meaning to 'vested interests' eh? Ah well...

Glen January 3, 2008 6:12 pm (Pacific time)

Neal makes a good point. When a study contradicts our experience we question it. And we should. Teachers question studies all the time when they appear to be contrary to what they know from experience. Just because somebody conducted a study, doesn't mean the study was a good one. For example, the study sample may have been too small to draw any conclusion from. If you actually read the study it may be that the conclusion of the authors isn't supported by their evidence. It may be that the study is suspect because of the study's sponsor. For example, I looked at several studies which concluded that uniforms improved behavior and academic progress. Looking a bit further I noted that these studies were sponsored by businesses which manufactured school uniforms. The results could well be influenced by vested interests. The studies which are the most credible are the ones which measure like against like. In the case of school uniforms the study by the Journal of Educational Research compared catholic schools against other catholic schools. The only difference was that one mandated uniforms and the other didn't. The sample size was large enough to lend validity to the conclusions of the authors. They had no vested in the results either way. Unformed students had poorer attendance and lower test scores. You have to go back and look at the original study. Not what someone else thinks the study says. You have to look at the original data and draw your conclusions. You can't off-hand dismiss studies. You can't off-hand accept studies. You got to do your homework.

Henry Ruark January 3, 2008 6:12 pm (Pacific time)

LHU et al: Any working newsroom always represents more points of view, held by tougher participants, than any Legislature in the nation. That's why investigative teams, now sadly depleted by neocon economy trends and corporatization of ownerships, do the deep professional jobs they used to accomplish --the professional competition and ongoing dialogs build it that way. Disagreement then forces solid digging on every point, and that's where real stories come from, with facts to make them stand up and stand out. "Fun and games" here is only small stuff after several such experiences --and all of us here are seeking the truth to bring to you, for your further check via "see with own eyes" and "using own brain". We do NOT demand you simply take our word for anything, as do most neocons, even those few willing to come out from behind that tree...

Tim King January 3, 2008 3:54 pm (Pacific time)

Well these gentlemen have a disagreement and I think it is just too much of a subject for things to stay very calm. Being on the same team does not mean we have the same points of view.

Lord Help Us January 3, 2008 3:37 pm (Pacific time)

Insane! Neal and Glen, both writers for this news site, arguing and bickering? Tim and Bonnie, you need to get your folks under control!

Henry Ruark January 3, 2008 11:49 am (Pacific time)

To all: Despite impassioned defense by Neal, must endorse again the article by Len, and from review of his links disagree with Neal re what they show and how valid they are. The faults Neal claims to see, I do believe, arise more from his own readings than from the realities of what is shown in these valid studies themselves. Such major academic work undergoes an intense and always revealing course of colleague and other-expert reviews before it ever makes the pages such as cited here. The editors involved know full well that such deep-test must be done, not only as tradition but also to preserve their own credibility and accountability clearly at professional stake. The original work by Neal surely did not undergo any such searching examination and test; and surely he must know that illustrations here are chosen and installed by the editors -no way Len had any choice in that matter, as I know from personal experience here.(Always wonder where Bon or Tim can find such relevant images, so fast...) See-also my early comment on choice of illustration, which I'll guarantee came from what could be found-and-freed for usage here rather than from any attempt to bolster what Len had written and submitted. Sure do NOT want to place self "in middle", but accuracy and fairness demand this response, with my credibility tested via long writing experience (40 years and more) in this general area. Again I say "Go it friends!" but let's avoid impassioned defense driven by feeling and need to protect domain -- a fault to which I sometimes fall heir too, given bad faith attack --surely not to be found here in either work by Len OR Neal.

Neal Feldman January 3, 2008 5:59 am (Pacific time)

Glen Bledsoe - Please do not insult my intelligence or that of others. I never said to do as I say because I say so and if you think you can find that quote by me directly I challenge you to produce it. And your claim I did not think my comments through is equally dishonest and insulting on your part. I see the Nazi appeal was going to just be the beginning of your factless tirade. And I can have an opinion and express it reasonably, as I did, without multi-million dollar longitudinal studies. This apparent claim of yours that I cannot is just plain asinine. And I read your article, several times. I also saw the large picture of Hitler Youth prominently displayed. If you are not equating school uniforms with Nazis then why did you include Nazis in the first place at all? So you could inject the concept but have deniability because of how you chose to phrase that paragraph? Some may be naive enough to be fooled by such transparent tactics but I assure you that I am not. So like I said I told Tim I would try to be civil but if you are going to continue to be insulting the gloves will come off. I saw the studies but they do not show WHY OR HOW the simple usage of school uniforms causes these alleged problems and in all honesty I doubt the sincerity and validity of the claim because I cannot myself fathom how the simple usage in the school of school uniforms causes the issues and knowing the complexities and variables where humans are involved I find it disingenuous for them to claim they could possibly have completely controlled for all variables so as to claim the situations were absolutely identical except for the usage of school uniforms. But as your article presented there are studies from ALL sides of the issue that, surprise surprise, support all sides of the issue. Therefore the studies are a wash as far as I am concerned. For all your vaunted faith i the studies they show nothing. But I have pointed to several issues that ARE known problems in the schools that WOULD clearly be dealt with or at least minimized by usage of school uniforms yet you choose to entirely ignore or play doge and dance around them. Also quite disingenuous of you and pretty hypocritical considering your 'reading comprehension' insults in your comments. And as for a free society schools are ruled less free than society as a whole. There is consistent legal precedent on this fact. My point is they are NOT making 'good choices' or 'good decisions' regarding dress, especially in the distracting and stratifying aspects. That is why I made the school uniforms suggestion, to deal with the issues caused by such clearly identified and harmful problems. Have you seen a high school girl brought to tears, completely unable to function during an important test, because of comments some shrewish Queen Bee made to her about her clothing? I have. So do not try and tell me that such does not occur or that such does not have harmful effect. You come across like the character in that Marx Brothers movie who says "Are you going to believe me or your own lying eyes?". Like I said before I was polite and respectful in my original article that you seem to have found so much fault with (maybe your being part of what is arguably a failing public school system that opposes my suggestions as a reflex might have something to do with that) and was even respectful in my initial responses to your article, but if you continue to be insulting, pedantic and disingenuous with your clearly oozing disrespect I will have little reason to continue to be respectful. Keep that in mind. Ah well...

Henry Ruark January 2, 2008 4:07 pm (Pacific time)

To all: Re general question of educational effectiveness now,key fact is that NCLB is dead. We told you why it had to die, earlier this year; see Op Eds then. That clears the way for the return to local control so long demanded, after failure of federal attempt to take over via NCLB testing-powers misused, misapplied. What comes next ? We'll lay out major points here soon, some in answer to Neal's good motivation via large-bite approach, and Len's informed and sensitive response on one important issue, essential since it deals with learner attitudes and expectations.

Glen Bledsoe January 2, 2008 12:57 pm (Pacific time)

Neal: Teachers break down their assessment of a student's ability to read into different strands. For example, can the student locate information? If a teacher gives a student a short reading selection about Tony and his brown horse and the teacher asks the student what color was Tony's horse and the student can't answer that question the teacher is left to puzzle out whether the student didn't understand what he read or maybe either didn't read the selection or just skimmed it.

Similarly I'm puzzled with your first response at the bottom of this page. I quote you: "Nazis? Mention school uniforms and NAZIS get dragged into it? Not everyone in uniform is bad like the Nazis. Cops wear uniforms as do our military personnel."

I'm left to puzzle: is this a comprehension problem? Are you unable to locate information? Did you actually read or just skim the reading selection? Are you unable to summarize the reading selection? Did you lose your cool because you saw the picture of the Nazi youth in uniform and angrily tossed off a response? I want you to go back and re-read (not skim) paragraph 14. It begins with the words "Some of the worst crimes..."

Neal says: "Do YOU have studies showing school uniforms cause great harm? Just curious." Again, I don't know if you didn't read or didn't understand the links I provided. Please have a look and actually read the study conducted by The Journal of Educational Research--which is a well respected professional publication, by the way. Especially focus your attention on the part of the study which compares Catholic schools in which students wear uniforms to Catholic schools in which students do not. I draw your attention to this quote in particular: "Uniformed Catholic students are absent more often and, on average, score some 3 points less on an achievement test than non-uniformed Catholic students. This fails to support the thesis that uniforms are related to these outcomes." You may debate whether or not uniforms cause GREAT harm, but they do have at least a small negative effect. If you've read my piece carefully you'll remember my conclusion: "If we are a free society why don't we grant our young people the simple freedom of choosing the clothes they would like to wear to school so long as they're making good decisions?"

You offer your opinions, Neal, and that's fine. But why should anyone give your opinions any credence when you haven't done any research, nor have you thought through your critique very carefully. "People should do what I say because I said so" isn't a very compelling reason for anyone to listen to you. If you're going to criticize education, you'd better know what you're talking about. Neal, I respect and value your opinion on many issues, but you're out of your element when you take on education.

Henry Ruark January 2, 2008 11:48 am (Pacific time)

Janet: Seems a bit of denial creeps into your statement. Some of us "in education" went there by choice, well after achieving some maturity. IF you are to deny impact of the so-called "educationists", why not also discard the "medicalists","dollar-dealing financialists", et al, et al. SOMEtimes special training and learning experiences in close working contact with our kids DO pay off... What was your final level, by the way ? Do you speak from some actual experience, or is this simply feeling from...whatever body-part suits you ?

Janet 2 January 2, 2008 10:29 am (Pacific time)

Let's hold hands and sing Koom ba ya.... You have to understand something folks... These type of people will only seek information that validates their claim and deny the other side of an issue. Trust me... Some of these people that have worked at colleges and have obtained higher degree's but these same people do not have a high level of common sense. *** News Flash Folks *** In Australia some or most of the schools have uniforms and they do pretty well... Don't get me wrong though. It's not going to solve a lot of problems. A lot of the problems that we see with our(US)education stem from these so called Education Groups. Of course this upsets them when this issue is brought up. And they will attack you like a pack of angry badgers. I guess this means the Boy Scouts are Nazi's. --- Opps How did that get in there!! Anyway hope everyone has a safe and "Educational" New Year.

Henry Ruark January 2, 2008 7:46 am (Pacific time)

To all: Open, honest, democratic dialog must, by definition, allow ongoing responses-as-needed. What is also essential, and often overlooked here, is the twin necessity for civil approch to each other, thus preserving the tone and impact of dialog participation for mutual learning, while simply recognizing and heeding the same essentials as any other civilized conversation. We damage much more than dialog-here when we indulge in common failing of fast defense when we feel personally challenged; to do so soon reduces democratic approach to same old confrontation leading on to "violence" existant in tribal and cult history,fully outmoded since 16th Century.

Neal Feldman January 1, 2008 11:07 pm (Pacific time)

Reader - Wow I was unaware we had an official post counter or that there was a limit. If I have something to say I say it. If it is in response to an individual I give them the courtesy of their own response so they do not need to fig through a novel to find theirs. (Sometimes I can imbed carriage returns others not, not sure why but I wish I could as this whole one paragraph thing is irksome). But look... all your comment did was up my count. Darn. Ah well...

Reader January 1, 2008 6:46 pm (Pacific time)

Neal, 7 out of 19 comments on the article are by you! Please leave it alone for now, and absorb whatever you might from alternative comments!

Neal Feldman January 1, 2008 1:03 pm (Pacific time)

Albert Marnell - Chaos only wins if order allows it. Suspension for first offense, longer for second, expel on third. The anarchist ringleaders would be removed and spots in the school would be opened for those wanting to learn. In fairly short order parents (who would get no refund for expulsions) would lean on their tantrum throwing brats and the issue would go away. Ah well...

Neal Feldman January 1, 2008 1:00 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson - I do not think my original article nor this one deals with vouchers. I know why neocons rant on vouchers but the topic is irrelevant here. Vouchers only stratify the haves and have nots and fund the choices of the haves on the backs of the have nots. Just saying you have a voucher is meaningless. Can a poor family get the kid to and from the excellent school? Doubtful. Are the excellent schools required, as the public schools are, to take and keep any and all who apply regardless of what it does to class sizes etc? Nope. And any special needs are funded out of the public school budgets for the benefit of the private schools. These reasons (and many more) are why the voucher idea is a non starter and the cry of 'school choice' rings hollow. Ah well...

Neal Feldman January 1, 2008 12:54 pm (Pacific time)

Glen - My head is entirely cool and I took no personal offense at all. But with the picture chosen it is hard to not see the main thrust of your issue being school uniform = Nazis. And if the Nazis are not significant to your arguement why drag them in due to the viscerally distractive effect doing so usually produces? As for the studies as you say they cancel eachother out. So I go with my personal experiences and those experiences show that school uniforms would reduce distractions and stratifying points and points of contention from the school environment. How many problems are related to what kids wear? Many. How many would remain if uniforms were instituted. Virtually none. What problems would be created by uniforms? None I have seen. As such I fail to see why you oppose the idea so strongly as to drag Nazis into it. Ah well...

Henry Ruark January 1, 2008 7:58 am (Pacific time)

To all: Editor's instinct to check statement shows this one to be subtly distorted to show result not always encountered. In fact, vouchers are neocon apparatus to distort, pervert funding source (your taxes !) for neocon purposes in education, by heavy support of private-profit schools frequently without either local or state supervision. Obvious purpose is to provide further support for "privatization" effort, moving what governance should be doing for all into private-profit sector where dollar-driven motive defines entire activity. IF you doubt that happens with private-profit/driven schools, go try one for yourself, with or without vouchers. ANY private school worthy of name will be controlled and comprehensively surveilled by the local and state agencies overseeing the public schools. If NOT-so managed, you are relying on operation for private profit-driven motive --by definition !! So much for personal-motive driven "advice" from proven (by own words !) "incredible" counselor. "...a private school environment where the learning and behavior is superior."

Albert Marnell December 31, 2007 7:33 pm (Pacific time)

I never went to a public school or college. Starting in junior-high school, the students started to rebel by violated the dress code little by little. Ultimately after years the administration had to let the students express their individuality. They could not control or fight us. They would have had to shut down.

Jefferson December 31, 2007 3:11 pm (Pacific time)

When looking at causal variables when it comes to learning and other behaviors, there will always be "glaring" exceptions, and school uniforms certainly present both pro and con longitudinal data. You can find schools whose student's wear uniforms have problems and vice versa. The solution may be more easily found by comparing students who have left one public school (that had learning and discipline problems) via a voucher program and gone into a private school environment where the learning and behavior is superior. I favor free choice in a public school setting and in a private school setting, well as they say" When in Rome..."

Henry Ruark December 31, 2007 11:50 am (Pacific time)

Glen et al: Admire your choice of phrase "Keep a cool head"; demanded advice in any dialog situation where one is definitely interested in content sharing and mutual learning, vs that other very human predilection to defend-at-all-costs... We've had enough of that latter neocon style already in this channel, and I can safely recommend your approach to all concerned as much more likely to produce acceptable and effective results. Again I say to you: "Go it, friends !" --and the more emphasis on the friendly approach the more rapid and strong will be the mutual learning-via-sharing for which this column has much work to do.

Henry Ruark December 31, 2007 11:46 am (Pacific time)

MHJ: May be able to reassure you re use of Nazi-uniformed youth. From long professional publication experience, can assure you that choice of image is perfectly acceptable to most editors and readers. You may have own special sensitivity, for which the image raises feelings; sorry if that is so, but that does not invalidate choice here, believe me.

Carol December 31, 2007 10:15 am (Pacific time)

Isn't bringing up Nazis and showing a picture of the same, just a tad hysterical?

Glen December 31, 2007 9:28 am (Pacific time)

Neal, I have offered not just my thoughts on the issue, but also research of people who've thought seriously on the subject for some time. Read the material presented in the links and you'll see arguments for both sides of the issue. All of your objections about nazis and so on are dealt with in the text. Re-read what I wrote carefully. Keep a cool head. This is a discussion, after all. I am not attacking you personally, but am examining the logical extension of your ideas from my viewpoint. I am immersed in these issues every day. This is what I do for a living so my perspective must have some validity.

mike h jefferson December 31, 2007 8:15 am (Pacific time)

what the hell kinda message is the hitler photo trying send? that in itself is a distraction- thats crap

Henry Ruark December 31, 2007 7:54 am (Pacific time)

C-Jack et al: Problem with "big bites", especially in complex issue analysis, is that one tends to choke...!! For documentation check out some of my past Op Eds, also unfortunately open to such conclusion on re-reading much later. But that's part of process when one signs own stuff, right out there in the public eye...with result, usually, of guaranteeing careful and very conscientious approach with due humility, over the long run. You'll never find that on the neocon side, since humility is the other side of "defeat" for them, while for normal human beings it is simply the first step in further learning, often achieved via the help of others, via "conversation".

Henry Ruark December 31, 2007 5:40 am (Pacific time)

To all: This demonstrates solid and sensible dialog approach. Its strength is built right on foundation of current experience in the classroom by Len, willing and very able to report on his own solid background in technologies as well as with kids currently experiencing precisely what he writes about. He has already demonstrated credibilities in his other work, in itself among the best I've viewed across the nation. BUT whole piece seeks and welcomes other views, while providing precisely the basis for mature consideration needed here. Thank you, Glen, and again I say: "Go it, friends !" There's nothing better than mutual sharing, which is after all the basis not only for any effective, efficient school activity but also, of course, for our democracy itself. Somehow I do not miss the personal/professional attack and easy calumnies found in some other approaches here recently --do you ??

Neal Feldman December 30, 2007 10:12 pm (Pacific time)

Captain Jack - You must be joking. After the initial reply I reread the article a couple times and had additional thoughts. Thinking folks do that from time to time. Ah well..,

Captain Jack December 30, 2007 9:31 pm (Pacific time)

Neal are you being a little paranoid? Three comment posts from you in a row? That just makes you look desperate friend. I don't think you have a big need to defend yourself over this one, you just take really big bites and venture into areas where in the estimation of some, you lack real experience. It isn't to say that you don't know what you're talking about, but you have many, many thoughts and opinions about what others should be doing. I know you expect a reaction.

Neal Feldman December 30, 2007 9:05 pm (Pacific time)

Also keep in mind this was hardly a core concept to my suggestions... it was in the 'and this might help too' category. Ah well...

Neal Feldman December 30, 2007 8:59 pm (Pacific time)

Oh and in case I was unclear, school uniforms, by my definition, is the same for everyone. Not just White shirt, jacket, etc... but THE SAME, IDENTICAL (other than size) clothing .. one set for girls one for boys. Dress two people up in literally identical outfits and tell me how they 'show theirs are better'? Ah well...

Neal Feldman December 30, 2007 8:54 pm (Pacific time)

Nazis? Mention school uniforms and NAZIS get dragged into it? Not everyone in uniform is bad like the Nazis. Cops wear uniforms as do our military personnel. Dragging Nazis into it hardly bolsters your argument... in fact it makes it seem somewhat grasping and desperate. I do not have any studies on hand to support my beliefs in the regard to school uniforms, but then again I do not need to. I have seen schools with uniforms and I have seen them without them. And I know how kids are with any differences. Even if you limited things to jeans and t shirts there would be those with the designer styles and those without causing potential for problems. Dress codes I have always found ridiculous for this reason as well as the censorship aspect. Some ideas can be expressed but not others. Also in their attempts to deal with 'gang stuff' they give power to the gang to get anything banned by simply adopting it in their 'gang'. I'm not one to give gangs any more power than necessary (preferably none). By distraction I was not really meaning girls coming to school half naked though there is that I guess... distraction from the purpose of being at school... to learn, not as an impromptu fashion show to use to stratify students. As for the 3 yr thing you mentioned likely the biggest difference was seen at first because it was NEW. Also after a whole of better behaving students likely the administration got lax. I cannot say as I was not there. But there is no way to credibly deny that different clothing is a distraction and point of contention in school. School uniforms eliminate that as everyone wears the exact same thing. No designers, no Goths, no preps, no greasers (dating myself I know) etc. I fail to see where it is a bad thing and I get from this article the worst that can be said pf school uniforms is they make no difference. Do YOU have studies showing school uniforms cause great harm? Just curious. It would be interesting to see how just having school uniforms adversely affects student performance... unless it is in the short term of students throwing a hissy fit/tantrum to try and get the policy changed. Once they see it ain't changing they tend to drop such nonsense. And the uniforms are not intended to change their lives... just to reduce distractions while at school. Ah well...

Janet December 30, 2007 8:52 pm (Pacific time)

I agree with not having school uniforms. I can understand in private schools, but we are so PC these days, we don't want our kids to remotely express themselves...sad.. One quote got from this article got my attention though...why just she??? The idea, he explained, promoted by some education administrators was that wearing a uniform changed a student’s frame of mind, made her more academically focused, decreased behavior problems.

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School Dress Codes: A Need for Uniformity?

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