Public Policy Group Says Tax System Keeps Oregon Afloat

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Jefferson December 26, 2007 11:45 am (Pacific time)

Henry you sure are right about skunks exposing themselves. The most dangerous people we have in America, are the anti-Americans, and they are real easy to spot by people who simply use common sense, e.g. , they write one thing, but then they always get back to reducing individual rights at the expense of demanding more government services, which simply grows the government even more while steadily taking more and more money away from the individual. Henry are you familiar with the DNA database Isreal has? Has nothing to do with religon Henry, so why do you think they have and are continuing to develop it? I know why, and so does anyone with 3 digits in their IQ, so obviously Evasive Feldman" is permanently clueless...As I have said many times before, it's the initial name callers who are the bigots. I simply ask why do not "some" people who have the information about the criminal behavior of Isreal disavow and demand we cut off all funding! I imagine that will happen when we see someone like Spielberg make an "accurate" movie on the www.ussliberty.com rather than non-American orientated movies (like Raid on Entebbe-not a Spielberg flick) like Munich or so many others that have an agenda that really is not pro-American. Sure there are exceptions, but very few... Israel has willfully killed Americans, violated treaty's with us, spied on us getting even more Americans killed ( remember convicted spy Pollard, navy non-combatant like feldman- so many have fled the states to avoid prosecution and Israel will not let us have them!), developed nuclear weapons in direct violation of terms we set for them to receive our continued funding, ad nauseum...It's a real simple thing to do people, because by not challenging this war criminal nation and their political supporters in congress, then you are supporting their criminal behavior. Those who have dual citizenship with them should make a choice, and frankly all dual citizenship should be dissolved...you cannot serve two masters, so make a choice. When someone calls you anti-Semite for simply stating empirical facts, then now you know who the real bigots are!

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Anonymous December 23, 2007 12:16 pm (Pacific time)

Now it's football ? For the record, played two other team sports, won medals in tennis, badminton...at 120lbs-then, a bit light for bullyboy-style football, as played at my small h.s. in Maine. Later, won awards in downhill ski-racing,too..still got couple up on wall with national tech specialist honorary membership for service to their group for editorial writings. Re unfair emphasis on Neal and Israel, Nonentity's lewd original was veiled indirectly in anti-Israeli language, charging Neal with ostensible "conflict of interest", done since he could NOT here make direct reference to Wicca (sp ?) faith Neal follows, but did want to "smear" (for some yet still the mode !) with known tie to Jewishness. Lincoln wrote "What kills a skunk is the publicity it gives itself" -and here we have a current example of how wise Lincoln was. Pls note that it was primarily "conservative" economic forces, mostly the cotton planters, that finally found it essential to bring on Civil War...and we still have to fight same lack of prime commonsense respect for all humans. For nonentity: That concept is NOT "socialist", just Christian, helpfully offered just before Christmas since I know you do not understand that Christian concept; with my apologies for interrupting your Alpine retreat and large feast with added carbon to atmosphere. Did you use kicker check to buy gasp-gulping carburetor, as you stated here originally ??

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Jefferson December 23, 2007 9:07 am (Pacific time)

Waterboarding torture? No it isn’t. People you may have read reports of individual's wanting to be waterboarded or have actually had it done to them (I did, no problem, and I lasted over 90 seconds. Though I simply held my breath)? When was the last time you read of journalists wanting to try having their arms pulled out of their sockets or any other true torture? No one volunteers for true torture, since we have folks, including journalists, lining up to try waterboarding, then would reasonable people line up to be waterboarded if they want to be tortured? Of course not...you just have people grandstanding for whatever political reasoning, certainly not about understanding through experience! Loser's! During WWII, for example, when enemy soldiers were out of uniform it was not unusual for them to be shot. How then should terrorists be treated in combat zones, or here in America, Europe, or anywhere for that matter? Have the terrorist's signed the Geneva Convention? Do they torture our military now? If we stopped waterboarding would they sign the Geneva convention, put on uniforms and stop lethal torturing? When you look at what some tell you what torture consists of then you could say football practice (not something Henry or Neal would be familiar with!) is torture, boot camp would be, reading Henry's constant brutal re-packaging of his socialist ideology, i.e , his mediocrity may really stand for torture...ummm. Please note Neal's bravado (you gotta be kidding me!), but still he will not address a simple inquiry: Does he think we should cut funding to Israel (over a trillion dollars worth of supplies and financial assistance given to this cabal since 1948, computing with simple interest on it's value) who have ruthlessly killed Americans (war crime), engages in lethal torture (Geneva violations)and is accused of engaging in possible apartheid behaviors, etc. ? People there may be some clear reasons why Neal won't respond, but let's give him another chance. Though I won't hold my breath, but maybe some of you can brainstorm your reasons why he evades. Anyway I came back home to pick up some things, but will be gone for a while now. All of you believers out there: Merry Christmas and remain vigilant! Neal you are so predictable youngster, so predictable. I took some time and read some of your profile material, heck, it was not necessary. P.S. People you will not see a whole bunch of stories on the past successes of waterboarding and other techniques used to gather intelligence information, but you are alive today because of past intelligence gathering, that is the truth! Those on the left are truly grandstanding...why did they not ask previous administrations to stop waterboarding? I served during past democratic and Republican Administrations and I never noticed any public outcry! Think people...the far left is not about exploring all sides of the issues, just their side! They are very afraid of reasoned debate using primary sourced facts and data...

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Henry Ruark December 22, 2007 12:57 pm (Pacific time)

To all: Further re "intensities" on torture, "see with own eyes" in NATION 12/31/07,p.10,Alexander Cockburn's column, re details of "interrogation" of Zubaydah, who was reported to have "then revealed secrets saving lives" in other press. "Frantic with pain and terror, he shrieked out one imaginary plot after another. including planned assaults on New York's water supplies, nuclear plants, shopping malls, banks, the Brooklyn Bridge. "At each disclosure, Suskind writes, 'thousands of uniformed men and women raced in a panic to each...target. Thus "the United States would torture a mentally disturbed man and then leap, screaming, at every word he uttered". Cockburn's quotes are from Ronald Susskind's THE ONE PERCENT DOCTRINE, recently published. So whom do you believ " Our naive and confused neocon nonentity or two worldfamed journalists, Cockburn and Suskind ?

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Henry Ruark December 22, 2007 6:21 am (Pacific time)

To all: The basic reference for striking difference betweem "debate" and "dialog" is worldfamed linguist Debra Tannen's book: THE ARGUMENT CULTURE: Moving From Debate to Dialogue; ISBN 0-965-60915-4;1998 --widely used at every level, and a prize resource for any professional communicator or ordinary citizen wishing to be rational, reasonable --and well-received. Jack Rosenthal, Pulitzer Prize winner, former Editor of New York TIMES Magazine, writes in review: "We are, all of us, foreigners to each other: editor and writer, man and woman, Californian and New Yorker,friend and friend. Dr. Tannen shows us how different we are and how to speak the same language." IF we are to save our democracy from malignant attack by those who wish it to fail, for their own special and selfish interests, we had better learn !! This open, honest, fully democratic dialog-channel is meant to offer YOU precisely that opportunity, to share and learn with each other, as did our Founding Fathers. Personal/professional attack and impure political propaganda and its persiflage simply deny and defy that opportunity for all. "Anon" or user-name is fully acceptable here, but this is "conversation" in the John Dewey sense ("Democracy begins in conversation") and for full impact of your contribution you should expect to make your own ID open simply as fair play for others and as part of our social compact shown in any regular conversation conducted face-to-face. What could be simpler than that ? Test your stuff by mirror-bounce: IF you can sign it with your ID, send it...if not, why bother ? It becomes only noise, in a world already overwhelmed by such stuff. Thus you, too, can be a real Dewey-fan, and offer YOUR strengths and special knowledge of any event, issue, circumstance, or citizen responsibility, right out here in this open, honest channel. Go it, friends !!!

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Henry Ruark December 22, 2007 5:36 am (Pacific time)

Nonentity: You still do NOT GET IT: This is NOT "debate", no matter how you slice it, but dialog --open, honest, good faith "conversation" a la Dewey, as foundation for our democracy. ANY debate begins by full introduction of participants, based on "know the opponent" as a fundamental rule. Here you deny and defy that first foundation rule by NON-ID, thus producing unfair and highly unpleasant advantage, which you continue to use to the full, despite ongoing open challenge to do the right thing and "turn on the light" so we can see from whence you cometh --thus also revealing the other important part of WHY: i.e. your inescapable personal conflicts of interest which drive some persons far more than democratic ideals. Difference is fundamental and explains your invariable attack-mode, while those honest enough to play by rules here seek to share and learn from each other as intended. Re yrs to Matt, simply shows excruciating attitude built in by your now-revealed life experience, seeking superior feeling at every level and in any way it can be gotten. What you say here is unanswerable in this restricted space, as you well know --which is why you so-state it. Re Nike, as with any other corporation, increasingly sharp competition now general and worldwide forces the very actions we deplore...which is what Reich and the Boston Summit explain in detail...if you bothered to listen, read and learn. What must be done is to redesign the corporate format, as Summit does by worldwide and authoritative participants far more qualified than you will ever be. IF you have any quarrel, it is with worldwide change, not with progressive principles now sweeping ahead everywhere. Meanwhile "confrontational conservative attitudes", always inescapable via inbuilt philosophy, continue to force precisely the non-producing phenomena our longtime Legislature, bought and paid for by "corporate campaign contributions", produced here for decades, despite every-yr promise of "cooperation" and "ethical behavior" this time, as it does also in Congress. Again precisely, the very same situations and very same "solutions" continue to be controlled and partially applied at national level, producing the largest national deficits ever and the deepest and bloodiest involvement in unnecessary "war" to extend and "improve" the "empire" which has always been the goal of the neocon remnant now in full charge of a once-proud --and rightly so !--true GOP. But time doth run out, as you et al will soon discover.

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Neal Feldman December 22, 2007 1:32 am (Pacific time)

Jefferson - nice dodge and dance attempt there but I stand by my statements. And whatever Matt's situation do not think for a second that I would not say anything and everything I have said here to your face and enjoy every second of it. You claim to know Matt's type but I surely know yours... coward through and through, and dimwitted to boot. Come on... when and where do you want me to say it to your face? I'm sure Henry would enjoy watching too, though I doubt you have the balls to show up anyway. Like I said I know your type. You should watch your challenges as you never know when someone like me will call you on one. Ah well...

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Jefferson December 21, 2007 6:30 pm (Pacific time)

Neal make your argument with Nike and outfits like them (and the taxing democrats which promulgate the outsourcing), not conservatives. Matt, let's be honest young man, you have no concept what debating is about do you? I assure I do not take your insults personally, because frankly I know you would never talk that way to my face, I know your type. If you ever got picked, it was always last...and I was the type who did the picking. Been that way your whole life hasn't it Matt? Just embittered going back to childhood. Why don't you try to calm down and be resourceful and give me some info that actually contradicts what I write, then maybe we can both grow from that exchange while exploring different issues...make them relevant, not just to create some meaningless circular barrage of insults, okay? If not, have a great xmas anyway...

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Henry Ruark December 21, 2007 4:20 pm (Pacific time)

Truth here easy to convey: Simply send "see with own eyes" link and allow those who seek truth to think about what you set up for them that way. Works every time when those who really care act to check out what's offered to see what it's worth for themselves. But remember, too, this is or should be a "conversation", due to control via same factor as if you are face/face with friend, in decent, honest, democratic dialog --NOT debate. No winners here in personally confrontational combat when what's demanded in our desperate status as nation is decent sharing for real democratic and mutual learnings, to carry on our inevitable citizen responsibilities.

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Matt Johnson December 21, 2007 2:49 pm (Pacific time)

What Henry does is speak the truth while greedy members of the GOP like Jefferson lie their asses off in order to diffuse the truth of the argument. Every point made by Jefferson is a joke and worthy of nothing. Greedy people always spend their time trying to preserve the greed and justify their miserable existences. For them, it is a trap, and the lying has to grow consistently for it to have the desired effect. I'm going to be watching this moron closely and I suggest that nobody give him the dignity of responding in kind. Leave him out there to rot with his anti-human philosophies and "everything is ok if the GOP did it" attitude. Too late Jefferson, your number is had and I am going to pound this comment section with the truth. I hope Salem-News doesn't get sick of hearing from me, I know they have to be sick of hearing from your dumb ass.

Please watch the language and the insults, this one is barely flying below the wire, tone it down.

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Neal Feldman December 21, 2007 2:43 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson - economic data taken out of context as you have done is useless. You know I am no supporter of illegals and know the fiscal damages they cause. But it is the neocons you support that give trillion dollar tax breaks to multibillionaires and wage multitrillion dollar unnecessary wars and present states with massive unfunded mandates (NCLB etc) and whose main supporters take every living wage job they can from this country and ship it off to Indonesia etc where they can pay kids in sweatshops pennies a day instead of a living wage here... I guess you prove the adage that when you point your finger at someone you are pointing three back at yourself. Ah well...

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Henry Ruark December 21, 2007 12:43 pm (Pacific time)

Forgot to ask when his Op Ed is coming up...editor does not seem to have heard from nonentity on this open challenge, now repeated for ninth time. But, of course, ID required, for any responsible credibilities at all, so hard to see that happening...even if we exchange drafts in advance, on any chosen issue.

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Henry Ruark December 21, 2007 12:40 pm (Pacific time)

Nonentity: "Bow-wow" to you, too !! And after you lose it, be careful where you put your foot.

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Jefferson December 21, 2007 10:20 am (Pacific time)

Henry you simply recycle the same rhetoric, different format, but always ends the same...put big government in charged and continue to reduce individual rights. I would hope that people with just the minimum of reading "comprehension" skills can detect what your basic motives are? Also, you stating that I had a preference for Krugman (the antithesis of Capitalism and the American way) is just another "drive-by" potshot, ergo, an intentional lie on your part. People may I suggest going to the DrudgeReport and at least there you can see different viewpoints on economic matters then if you have any common sense, you will see what Henry is trying to mischaracterize re: economic assessments. He does not like facts nor different viewpoints. As I have repeatedly pointed out, people of his ilk will always attempt to demonize those who expose their smoke and mirror agenda. Please note that consumer spending is at a 3 and 1/2 year high, just the opposite of what the socialist writers that Henry offers you as his professional economic sources predicted. Pshaw!

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Henry Ruark December 21, 2007 7:17 am (Pacific time)

"See also" with own eyes this "TRICKLE-UP ECONOMICS" article by Robert J. Samuelson, in NEWSWEEK (10/2/06-on website.) "No one should be happy with today's growing inequality. It threatens our social compact, which relies on a shared sense of well-being". Also: "The rich are getting an ever-bigger piece of the economic pie. "In 2005 the richest 5 percent of households (average pretax income: $281,155) had 22.2 percent of total income." "In 1990, the share was 18.5 percent; in 1980, 16.5 percent. These figures exclude capital gains--profits on stocks and other assets--that have most benefited the richest 1 percent. "With capital gains their pretax income averaged about $1 million in 2003. That was about 20 times the average income of households in the middle of the economic distribution. In 1979, the ratio was 10 to 1" AND that trend has now become ever more threatening and oppressive on our once-strong middle class, now under heavy attack by economic reality. (See Robert Reich's new book SUPERCAPITALISM, which nonentity has never touched yet.) "Economics is easy" when one carefully chooses what numbers are used and how they are then combined to build reflection of reality, which is what "the dismal science" is supposed to do for us.

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Henry Ruark December 21, 2007 6:24 am (Pacific time)

Neocon nonentity stated his preference for NYT's Krugman as commentator on economics. SO here's K's content today; note reference to "unmitigated disaster". December 21, 2007 Blindly Into the Bubble By PAUL KRUGMAN "When announcing Japan’s surrender in 1945, Emperor Hirohito famously explained his decision as follows: “The war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan’s advantage.” "There was a definite Hirohito feel to the explanation Ben Bernanke, the Federal Reserve chairman, gave this week for the Fed’s locking-the-barn-door-after-the-horse-is-gone decision to modestly strengthen regulation of the mortgage industry: “Market discipline has in some cases broken down, and the incentives to follow prudent lending procedures have, at times, eroded.” "That’s quite an understatement. In fact, the explosion of “innovative” home lending that took place in the middle years of this decade was an unmitigated disaster." "See with own eyes", judge meaning with own mind, at NYT website. Will welcome Op Ed from nonentity on this issue, if he so chooses, and dares offer ID to editor.

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Henry Ruark December 20, 2007 5:53 pm (Pacific time)

Already done so, several times, with "see with own eyes" links, in both Op Eds and Comments, citing world and national authorities, AND OCPP, with content re pay levels, growing inequalities, tax avoidances, other issues. See STAFF for access to archives. Ironic for this dialog to appear as thread on OCPP story, since their stats prove up pertinent shift in tax burden from corporate to worker, among other major trends denied and defied by nonentity here. We too like two puppies, snorting and growling, biting at each other's tales (that's no typo !). But realities are there so obvious others fall over them every day in their own lives. SO repeat challenge to Jeff to do own Op Ed, with same "see with own eyes" I routinely furnish. Will even exchange drafts prior to publication with him. Topic simple: WHY the rich get richer, while middle class driven to desperate choices, in this economy he claims is doing so great. He can't accept without furnishing editor with full ID to qualify as credible; mine long on record here allatime. Never forget that figures don't lie, but neocons can figure, and do so allatime for neocon purposes, choosing only parts of true picture to make sure most people stay confused and UNinformed.

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Jefferson December 20, 2007 2:32 pm (Pacific time)

People please note that Henry offers no evidence to counter my posted economic data, such are his drive-by potshots, no substance from him...a socialist character trait?

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Henry Ruark December 20, 2007 1:06 pm (Pacific time)

Amazed that even nonentity will accept ANY numbers, on ANYthing, from administration caught in so many now-proven "perniciously incorrect" statements re every aspect of governance. But neocons, even when they attack each other, play same game of cover-up whenever it so behooveth them to continue ongoing nefarious economic nonsense. Cannot be naivete in a neocon, so that sharpens issue of truth non/recognized for malign purposes, per ongoing neocon record since Reagan.

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Henry Ruark December 20, 2007 11:08 am (Pacific time)

Nonentity stated economics "was easy". True only if using distorted, perverted pieces of puzzle as he does here. Direct contact offered now more than 20 times to provide full documentation of every statement made in Op Eds, but he fails to accept, and still refuses any ID. Until he is willing to allow the simple conversational courtesy demanded in any honest dialog -knowing to whom you speak- he deserves no credibility, anywhere. Hence "goodby, nonentity !"

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Jefferson December 20, 2007 7:54 am (Pacific time)

Neal how do you explain the below? Does this fit your doom and gloom scenario? Why is it that you people on the left become so invested in failure? Neal you seem pretty bright compared to Henry, engage some common sense young man, afterall we are all in this together. At least it seems you understand the danger the (overt)alien invasion is causing, but you fail to see and understand the covert one...open thine eyes. P.S. Neal look at the posted article dealing with weather... RTTNews) - The Commerce Department released its final report on gross domestic product in the third quarter on Thursday, showing that the pace of GDP growth for the quarter was unrevised compared to the preliminary estimate. The report showed that GDP increased at an annual rate of 4.9 percent in the third quarter compared to the 3.8 percent growth seen in the second quarter. Economists had expected GDP growth to remain unchanged at 4.9 percent. The GDP growth in the third quarter marked the fastest pace of growth since the third quarter of 2003, when GDP surged up 7.5 percent. The acceleration in the pace of GDP growth compared to the previous quarter primarily reflected accelerations in exports, consumer spending, and private inventory investment.

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Jefferson December 20, 2007 8:06 am (Pacific time)

Neal how do you explain the below good economic news? Is it because it does not fit into the gloom and doom scenario of those on the left, but it is what it is. So how come the left is so invested in failure regards to anything that can hurt my country? I understand where Henry is coming from, I really do as of a few hours ago, but why you Neal? It appears you appreciate the danger that the [overt] alien invasion represents, but you fail to see the covert one. Read more of Reich going back about 25 years or so, it's real clear to people trained in recognizing the deceptions that began here during FDR's stained administration...P.S. See latest scientific concensus regarding the rejection of global warming under the Oregon weather story...cheer up Neal, we adults will be back in charged real soon... RTTNews) - The Commerce Department released its final report on gross domestic product in the third quarter on Thursday, showing that the pace of GDP growth for the quarter was unrevised compared to the preliminary estimate. The report showed that GDP increased at an annual rate of 4.9 percent in the third quarter compared to the 3.8 percent growth seen in the second quarter. Economists had expected GDP growth to remain unchanged at 4.9 percent. The GDP growth in the third quarter marked the fastest pace of growth since the third quarter of 2003, when GDP surged up 7.5 percent. The acceleration in the pace of GDP growth compared to the previous quarter primarily reflected accelerations in exports, consumer spending, and private inventory investment.

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Henry Ruark December 20, 2007 7:16 am (Pacific time)

To all: Close check on contining neocon economic policies ever since Reagan Era will prove up damaging recurrences of precisely the same deeply hurtful policy consequences ever since.

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Neal Feldman December 19, 2007 3:13 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson - Interesting that the group that statewide and nationally has spent us deep into deby is your blessed repugnicans. Ah well...

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Henry Ruark December 19, 2007 12:38 pm (Pacific time)

To all: Might just point out fact that torture to extract information is one of those outmoded, long proven highly ineffective ideas from the 19th Century...even when first using water-boarding to soften up victim. SO character accepting participation in that has still another sharp reflection to be considered re any small credibilities still left.

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Henry Ruark December 19, 2007 12:25 pm (Pacific time)

To all: Why do I seem to hear that Packwood-character pattern in the background ? Predictive pattern pretty well reflected in that money-drive massively misapplied, as later events surely proved. Re unfinished "honest reference to" above, here's rest:"a weak corporate income tax that allows too many profits to go untaxed;", which should surely help focus the incoming Legislators on the large portion of our corporate enterprises operating profitably in Oregon but failing to pay fair share of the tax burden. SO you can see motivation for nonentity, as with other neocons afraid of what will surely occur as citizens find out the truth, and use it to set themselves and other citizens free of inequitable share of inevitable growing costs driven by 21st Century needs --while nonentities cling precariously to late 19th Century ideas and long-disproven practices.

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Jefferson December 19, 2007 10:01 am (Pacific time)

People coming after the 2008 election, if dems maintain control of the legislature, count on new taxes and user fees. Just like the upcoming global cooling (actually it's already begun!), you can count on the left's grab for more of your money...

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Henry Ruark December 19, 2007 6:17 am (Pacific time)

To all: Oregon is blessed to have such a sensible and well-performing group as OCPP on which to depend for depth and detailed explanation of what by nature must be complex fiscal matters. Please note herein the honest reference to

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