Oregon Courts Have No Right to Force Circumcision

What would the Oregon Supreme Court say to any adult who wanted to cut out any child's healthy eyes, inner ears, or tongue?

Baby being circumcised Courtesy: 1.prweb.com

(PANACEA, Florida) - I was extremely distressed to read a quote in a recent AP article by William McCall attributed to Oregon Supreme Court Justice W. Michael Gillette. It says he asked in a hearing, concerning the partial genital amputation desired by a boy's father for his twelve-year-old son, "what would happen if the noncustodial parent of a child objected to allowing participation in a risky sport, such as football", and then that he gave his own preposterous answer:

"'The answer to that is that's preposterous,' Gillette said. 'In fact more people get hurt playing football than from having a circumcision - a lot more, and a lot more seriously.'"

Dead wrong on both counts, Justice Gillette. There is a great deal of confusion in the USA on sex, sex organs and circumcision, and Gillette's question/answer illustrates a number of the serious ones.

First, children are killed by circumcising them, just as they are killed by playing football. I don't think one can harm a child more seriously than by killing him, but at least the child killed by football probably had a choice about whether to play.

Second, every child circumcised is seriously harmed, permanently. That's over a million children seriously and permanently harmed every year in the USA, many times the number harmed by playing football.

Study the modern scientific anatomy including the neuroanatomy of the human male foreskin at research.cirp.org, cirp.org/library/anatomy/taylor/, and cirp.org/library/anatomy/cold-taylor/. Very few people in the USA know that circumcising always cuts off and destroys forever a recently discovered, highly complex, highly vascularized, highly innervated human sense organ.

What would the Oregon Supreme Court say - what would Justice Gillette say - to any adult who wanted to cut out any child's healthy eyes, inner ears, or tongue?

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Astoundingly, what the Oregon Supreme Court is now actually debating - and deciding - is whether to permit adults to commit a permanently genitally mutilative, potentially lethal sex crime against a child. This case is considered "progress" in America, because it IS!

Third, some children lose their glans and some their entire penis to circumcising. I have heard of and read about a number of them, including David Reimer. I never have heard of a child losing his glans or penis from playing football. Other serious injuries and even deaths do occur in football, of course. I am not denying that football is a risky sport, but it doesn't harm all who play it. Not nearly. Circumcising does.

That our genital mutilating culture is deliberately ignorant of the many inevitable serious harms and additional serious risks of circumcising does not reduce to non-existence those harms and risks in reality, only in the "minds" (to use the term loosely) of adults insisting on remaining inexcusably ignorant of the many serious harms and risks of circumcising healthy children.

Fourth, a noncustodial parent objecting to their child's participation in football would most likely be opposing the child's wishes, not the custodial parent's. A child wishing to play football voluntarily is a very different thing from an adult wanting to cut off part of a child's healthy sex organs involuntarily.

Fifth, children have a choice about playing football. Usually adults aren't forcing football on them, and when they are, we recognize it as serious adult misbehavior. If Boldt were a custodial parent trying to force "his" (as we say) child to play football or any other risky sport against the child's will, the noncustodial parent, the child's coach, the legal system and the whole society would have an obvious obligation and duty to object to and prevent this unnecessary and dangerous, abusive imposition on the child.

Whose penis is it anyway? Not Michael Boldt's. Not Justice Gillette's. Not the Oregon Supreme Court's.

Many stand against circumcision in the United States Photo courtesy: stopinfantcircumcision.org

Parents do not own "their" (as we say) children. Slavery was outlawed in this country some time back. Parents certainly do not own "their" children's bodies or body parts. The legal system does not own them. The children and the adults children become own them, wholly, AND the legal system. It was created for us, not we for it.

The bodies, including all their normal, healthy parts, belong to the children. Chopping healthy, living parts off of children's bodies because you want to isn't a good enough reason. In fact, there isn't any reason good enough to chop off any normal, healthy, living body part from any normal, healthy child. Doing so is always child abuse, serious child abuse. In this case, it's permanently genitally mutilative child abuse and sometimes lethal child abuse. It is impermissible child abuse, as all child abuse is impermissible. It is a heinous sex crime and human rights violation.

What are adults trying to achieve by circumcising healthy children that is worth the risk of killing them?

Mr. Boldt's "religious freedom" excuse doesn't fly. It has been established law in this country for decades that we have complete freedom of religious BELIEF, but that religious PRACTICE must meet the tests of not violating other people's civil and human rights.

For example, in this still-great country I am free to believe that God wants me to burn down the Oregon Supreme Court building. Nobody can do squat about it, not even Judge Gillette. If, however, I start placing gasoline under the building and lighting matches it's no longer a matter of my private religious beliefs to which I have an absolute Constitutional and inalienable human right. It's criminal activity, for which I need arresting, prosecuting, convicting and jailing, my so-called "God" be damned, as far as the U.S. legal system is concerned.

The same goes for Mr. Boldt. He can believe all he wants to that "his God" (his attempted justifier for his sick wish to injure for life "his child's" sex organs and thereby sex life) wants him to chop off his son's foreskin, penis, arms, legs, head and belly button and it's not anyone else's business. When he takes out his knife and threatens or violates the child's physical integrity with it he's violating long established laws against inflicting injury on other people, or even threatening to. His religious freedom of action stops at his son's skin. The rights inside the skin, and TO the skin, belong to the boy, not to his ignorant, arrogant, sick father.

We recognize in this country that adults who hold a religious belief in circumcising girls do not thereby acquire the right to mutilate girls' genital organs. Do boys and intersex children have equal protection of our anti-genital mutilation laws or not?

The Oregon Supreme Court simply cannot allow deliberate, medically unnecessary, premeditated injury to this or any child's healthy sex (or any other healthy) organs. What sex the child happens to have been born is 100% irrelevant. A child's sex organs are strictly private property belonging to the child. That's why we call them "privates". If sex organs are not private there is no such thing as private. Boldt's son, like all children, has a right to his privacy.

He cannot even legally consent to the destruction of any part of his own body, even if he wants it done, which has not been established in this case anyway. No one, not even the Oregon or United States Supreme Courts, can consent on his behalf to medically unnecessary injury and permanent mutilation of his body. He has a human right to it. His body is what makes him human. Chopping it up without medical necessity is a crime. I think it's usually called "mayhem". The Oregon Supreme Court does not need to be in the business of committing genital mayhem against children and THEIR sex organs.

The Oregon Supreme Court needs to be NOT in that criminal business.

So, to the Oregon Supreme Court, I say, leave the boy whole, as you found him. You are not Gods. You are not entitled to redesign other people's bodies, including their sex organs, according to your or anyone else's sick whims.

This is not football you're playing. Football is not a game played with knives by adults, chopping up the healthy, living sex organs of children. That game is called "human vivisection". Nuremburg had something to say about it.

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MGM (male genital mutilation) should be illegal in the United States. It's the only way you'll get those diehard mutilators to stop. Proudly intact.

"while I search for treasure" Hmmmm? Wouldn't you be searching for the lost foreskin? I have a hint that you're loosing your time. Rather restore it!

First Encounter Assault Recon??? What's that?? Sounds like a FUBAR to me. Recon is a specific no encounter operation. Doesn't make sense. Just like any attempt to justify circumcision. New study from Africa by the gurus of circumcision. But, actually as mandated reporters they always re-evaluate. New: Circumcised men pass more HIV to their wives. http://www.icgi.org/2008/02/wives-more-likely-to-contract-hiv-from-circumcised-husbands/

"And your posts therefore have little credibility."Tandy Let me see, if my posts lack credibility and therefore I lack credibility. Do you know whom you are talking to? Have you fought off pirates, climbed up an old fort, found a U-boat in the middle of the jungle? If so are you stalking me? If so please stop it. I can't have random people follow me around while I search for treasure. Only Sully and Elena have that privilege.

"Tandy FEAR=First Encounter Assault Recon?" WHO wortes your scripts? I think you need some new writers, your posts have little coherence, relevancy, or mame much sense. If they are meant to be humoruous, I am afraid they miss their mark. Nothing seems to be thought out or supported by any substance--it seems you just shoot from the hip. And your posts therefore have little credibility.

Godsofchaos said, "Obviously you missed what I was getting at. Humanity is the same species therefore we remain inherently the same." I believe we evolve, socially and biologically, but your point is that we will always have evil with us. Mine is that you may be right and you may be wrong - always is a long time - but even if you are right, that is no argument for continuing to circumcise babies and children.

"FEAR is the force that gives us religion--"Tandy FEAR=First Encounter Assault Recon? Dang thought the FEAR guys only went up against clone troopers and the girl from The Ring. I didn't know they gave us religion too. Seriously do you think fear is the driving force of religion? Following your logic fear is the driving force behind everything since everyone has different fears. Such as airplanes, snakes, and spiders. I say most religions driving force is the opposite. Most religions give hope. Such as after life or going to a higher spiritual plane instead of being worm food and death being the end of all existence. I don't see how such ideas cause fear.

"The reason we as a species desire religion is to answer what, how and why we are here." The real reason some have gods is they fear the unknown and wish to know enough about hiow it works, so they can influence it.. FEAR is the force that gives us religion--the same thing that gives us circumcision. You might enjoy "The God Delusion"

“How about cell phones? Did they have those in the Bible days? Personal computers? Steam engines? William Shakespeare?" Van Lewis Wow humanity has something called technology? Glad you cleared that up. Obviously you missed what I was getting at. Humanity is the same species therefore we remain inherently the same. Just as birds fly to south every winter we as a species continue throughout history have the same vices, virtues (good side of humanity), and needs. Here let me break it down for you. "How about cell phones?" We have always had forms of commutations from the telegraph to pigeons. Technology on how we communicate for long distances may change but reasoning behind it has remanded the same. We as a species desire to know what is going on around us. "Did they have those in the Bible days?" Every culture has religion. Form worshiping a wood god to the modern religion of evolution creationist theory. The reason we as a species desire religion is to answer what, how and why we are here. The answers very but the question behind religion remains the same. "Personal computers?" Depends how you use them but many equivalents existed for each use in history. "Steam engines?" Humanity has always desired faster and safer modes of transportation. What do you think horses were used for? "William Shakespeare?" Ah yes we have always had a thirst for entertainment. What do you think Homer did? How about the Colosseum in Rome? Tastes may change but entertainment has always been a facet of hummaity.

A MESSAGE FOR MISHA - could one of his friends make sure he gets it - (from an old French man who would never give away his foreskin neither for all the gold nor for the most beautiful girl of the world) - Since he might choose circumcision for himself, he must be aware that God very obviously changed his mind between his order to Abraham and the Ten Commandments given to Moses, according to the following demonstration. This will enable him to become a Jew without loosing his foreskin, as many modern Jews do. "I AM A JEALOUS GOD WHO PUNISH THE CRIME OF FATHERS UPON CHILDREN UP TO... GREAT-GRANDFATHERS... " (Second Commandment) (PARIS, France) - Already in the middle of the 19th century, a German movement of Reform rabbis was the first Jewish movement in modern times to refuse circumcision, on Biblical grounds; the Ten Commandments do not prescribe it, it was not practised during the Exodus (circumcision was set back into practice after Moses's death, in Gilgal) and Moses was opposed to his son's circumcision, were their main arguments (Encyclopaedia Judaica. Keter publishing house limited; 1972. t. V, p. 571). Previous to Moses, worshipers of the masculine phallus and contemptuous of the feminine one, the Egyptians practised the mutilation of the specific organs of autosexuality of girls and boys and had imposed it on the Jews as a token of slavery. Having freed the Jews, Moses could not tolerate that some would perpetuate the barbarous pagan custom. Thinking that a "jealous God" cannot admit idolatry of the phallus and that the denudation of the glans makes the phallus a fetish and an idol, he denounces chapter 17 of the Book of Genesis through the Second Commandment. Assuming circumcision an attempt against the child ("a barbarous and bleeding rite" [quoted by the Dictionnaire encyclopédique du judaïsme. Paris: Editions du cerf; 1993. p. 433]) and that the custom isolates the Jews, Rabbi Abraham Geiger and his movement decided to follow Moses and abandon circumcision. This provoked an outcry in the Jewish community, rabbinical authorities answered their arguments and, at the end of twenty years, the German Reform rabbis came back to circumcision. But the "heresy" gained the USA where several rabbis practise a non mutilating ceremony of nomination. Geiger and his friends had perfectly understood that Moses was opposed to circumcision but, unfortunately, they had not made our discovery of the falsification of the meaning of the Second Commandment by orthodox rabbis, from antiquity until now. This falsification hides that this commandment forbids circumcision. Indeed the orthodox interpretation understands the Biblical text: "For I, the Eternal, your God, I am a jealous God, who punish the crime of fathers upon children up to the third and fourth generation... " (Exodus, 20: 5, literal translation of the French Rabbinate translation [Paris: Les éditions Colbo; 1966]), as if it said: "… who punish children for the crimes of fathers…", which it does not, merely stating: "... who punish the crime of fathers upon children up to... great-grandfathers... ". - first, God does not express himself in an ambiguous way; if the sentence had the meaning given by the rabbis, its construction would be the one above, - second, the text does not say "the crimes" but "the crime", which involves a definite, well-known crime upon children, which can only be sexual mutilation, - third, asserting that God punishes children for the crimes of fathers, the orthodox interpretation gives the term "jealous" the aberrant meaning of suspicious till injustice. Considering this Commandment a condemnation of common criminality that would strike irresponsible sons and grand-sons is extreme and unlikely, - fourthly, it would illogically make the Second Commandment redundant with the Sixth: "Thou shall not kill", - fifthly, at the contrary, the Second Commandment brings out "the crime" in question (mutilator paedo-sexual criminality) as very particularly reprehensible. Moses was aware of the gravity of a crime striking a whole part of the population (children). He deliberately puts apart sexual mutilation as a crime that is not ordinary crime but crime against creation (humanity), through which man usurps God's place. Mohamed (cf. above) shares this both theological and humanitarian argument of respect of the physical integrity, dignity, modesty and privacy of the child, - sixthly, this is attested by the terms "a jealous God" that simply mean a God jealous of his own creation, which man may not alter, - seventhly and consequently, for the first time in history, a penalty strikes the elderly years after their crime, regardless of the statute of limitations, - eighthly, why should such a draconian and blind (Hitler's madness disastrously copied from the rabbis, and amplified, their interpretation) family punishment of criminality in general abate at the fourth generation rather than applying to all the descendants? On the other hand, it is only natural that the punishment of circumcising criminals must stop with great-grandfathers; beyond them, it's true, there is nobody alive to punish, At last, it must be added that, just a few lines below the 2nd Commandment, the Bible enlightens it saying: "If however you build a stone altar for me, do not build it with carved stones for by touching them with the iron, you made them lay." (Exodus, 20: 21-22). Therefore God, or Moses, did not wrongly word the Second Commandment. The rabbis – very likely deliberately – did ill interpret it through introducing an nonexistent double meaning, in order to conceal that "the crime of fathers" is circumcision perpetrated upon the person of the sons. We owe the great Jewish liberator and legislator, enemy of slavery and barbarity, the invention, against infantile sexual mutilation, of the juridical concept of crime against humanity, with imprescriptible penalty. Cordially yours, Sigismond

"A urologist who met with the boy submitted an affidavit that said the procedure would cause him minor discomfort for about three days but not interfere with his normal activities, the Supreme Court's decision said." What a God damned liar that urologist is. That is exactly why this child torturing and mutilation called circumcision exists. That's how the child mutilators purposely lie to make people believe that cutting a piece of someone's penis off would be just a little discomfort for three days and not interfere with the victim´s normal activities. What if the boy used to go swimming every day? Wouldn´t circumcision interfere with his normal activities right there? This in itself is proving that this urologist is not telling the truth. Or what if the boy wants to make love to himself by effortlessly massaging his pleasure toy inside his rolling foreskin which, as honest and fearless as I am now out of disrespect for the pleasure diminishing child torturing sexual oppressors, was a normal activity for me at this age? What if he wants to masturbate without buying their expensive artificial lube? What if he realizes that rubbing his knob without his personal little vagina, his lovely and nasty pleasure giving foreskin, is not what it used to be and not the way he enjoyed pleasuring himself the most? Sexual gratification and joy brings inner peace and therefore it is healthy for the body and soul and therefore it is also good for peace in the world; even kids have feelings but thoss insane genital cutting criminals take the divine feelings away from us most effectively when we are still young; they inject sexual fear to take away our inner or truest git feelings so we turn out to be sexual fear spreading slaves that end up obeying those inhuman genital torturing perverts. What if he wants to make love to the world, the air and the universe by pulling his foreskin back and forth feeling the wind touching his moist cherry? What if he armors his sexual area after being violated with a knife on his penis by brain sick adults and therefore thinks of revenge all his life? Wouldn't that interfere with his normal activities? If some God damned reptilian child rapist disguised as an urologist would violate me like this I would not just be in discomfort for three days but in tremor, outrage and anger for life. I would not rest until I see my mutilator´s blood as revenge. Blocking the circumcisers from harming this boy is good but not good enough to solve the circumcision problem. Not closing the case by protecting the boy´s human rights for good and still giving it room for further questioning and a possible different outcome shows the insanity of this society. I would not be able to digest a different outcome without going completely berserk. They are not yet respecting the absolute human right of the child. It is traumatizing for the boy as they continue to torture the boy further with fear and uncertainty. Where is their heart? Do they have one? Or did they maybe delay on purpose so the case can get all the publicity it needs for the final outrage of the people so the Sword of Justice can finally come down on all those who enslave us by injecting sexual pain, fear, hate, mistrust and terror by cutting and torturing children´s genitals. By the way, where is the child protection agency when it comes to attacking children's genitals with knives and torture instruments? Why aren´t the judges and law makers practicing human kindness and justice based on common sense by putting an end to this cruelty by arresting all those who injure and endanger others and especially children. Arrest all circumcisers as they are sadistic sex criminals that tie their victims down to rape them with knives. Arrest them for inflicting cruel pain in children´s genitals, for sadistic psychological torture and sadistic physical harming, mutilation and humiliation of children? Where is their common sense for justice and humanity? Anyway, the delay will create more discussions and more time for people to wake up? I feel happy for the boy as he is temporarily saved from the oppressors burning knives, but it is still immoral, inhuman and cruel to keep him in the state of fear. Will the boy now be threatened and forced by this God damned faith changing father to tell something he would not say if he would not be in fear of possible repercussion by the overpowering and much stronger father? Do the father and the insane pro-circumcision sadists get one more chance to influence and threaten this innocent, afraid and dependent boy? What does the boy have to do with the old idiot's new belief? Why do those cruel cowards not cut their own f_____g dicks when they want to join those cruel religions whose advocates as we all know now are blatant liars that managed throughout history to deceive people and make them believe it would be for some God or even the Good of their children if they cut away the most pleasurable part of the penis? As they turned it into a cultural or religious thing to do they think it is lawful to stick knives into children's most sensitive genitals which were made by the God of Love to perceive LOVE-NOT PAIN? I have had it with these child enslaving, pleasure controlling, child mutilating, child torturing, merciless societies and religions. The genital cutting power freaks only exist because of lies and the fear politics they are practicing which keeps them alive and well fed like maggots in a cadaver in which they are thriving. Circumcisers are all extreme criminals that have to be brought to justice soon and with the help of the God of Love, Mother Nature, all the Higher Spirits, all Intactivists and all Awakened and Outraged People, may this day come sooner than they expect! Michael

Misha is safe for the moment. The fight for human rights goes on. http://blog.oregonlive.com/breakingnews/2008/01/oregon_supreme_court_blocks_fa.html#comments Court blocks father from circumcising 12-year-old son Posted by The Oregonian January 25, 2008 08:14AM Categories: Top Stories The Oregon Supreme Court on Friday blocked a divorced former Southern Oregon man from circumcising his 12-year-old son against the wishes of the boy's mother. The court ruled that the trial judge failed to determine whether the boy wanted to have the procedure. The child's mother, Lia Boldt, claims that circumcision is dangerous and that her son is afraid to say he doesn't want the procedure. Go here for the court's decision. The court ordered the case back to the trial judge to determine the boy's wishes. James Boldt, who converted to Judaism several years ago, wants to circumcise his son. As the custodial parent, he argued that he has wide latitude to make decisions for the boy. The lower courts sided with the father. The case attracted national attention. An anti-circumcision group based in Seattle said the practice was dangerous. Jewish groups joined the fray out of the concern that the Oregon court would restrict circumcision. -Ashbel "Tony" Green

Yes Sig. re: Original Sin in the Freudian construct, which with my knowledge I can only 'think' it's Freudian,'is your good point of sexual guilt and shame. Also Adam and Eve are archetypes. Archetypes belong to the Collective Unconscious. Kinda like our genetic psyche. These things, when studied, come close to imagry and symbolic myth worldwide even into our new technology of the film industry. Erich Neumann in "The Great Mother" stated: 'Aztec men fell from grace because of sexual desire.' Then one thing leads to another and 'voila' we do stupid things. From my perspective as a health care provider: "Impacted reason prophesies diarrheic action. Excuses are but winds of digestion," p. 51, "Blood Ritual: Socialized Sexual Predation."

"The most vital part of the baby, the most sexually pleasurable part of his body. Circumcision in the unconscious realm is a pathological attempt on the part of the adults in genitally mutilating societies to acquire not only the sexual power of the new life, but the life power, the life behind the sexual power, for themselves." And " "religion" is so messed up with genital mutilation." This is narrowly connected with the concept of "original sin". The very original sin is biting the apple: the mother's breasts, and having an erection during this enjoyable time. The punishment from the jealous fathers is inevitable. Circumcising their own infants in hommage to the divinity is the cheap sacrifice that "pays" for their own right to autosexuality... Thank you mummy and daddy! Cordially yours, Sigismond

Part of the reason to address circumcision with criminology comes from Lloyd deMause's comment in his "Universality of Incest." ((1)) Paraphrasing deMause: 'Pedophiles, with other perverts, feel unloved and seek children for an illusion. Domination is a huge factor, and sadism is common. In a perpetrator's lifetime, victims will number in the hundreds. These perpetrators possess a strong punitive superego which should not make it a surprise that many are highly religious.' ((2)) Quoting deMause: "The mutilation of children's genitals is such an important need in humans that whole religious and state systems have been founded upon the practice. Yet when scholars attempt to explain why almost everyone since the beginning of recorded history has massively assaulted the genitals of their children, they assiduously deny that it is a sexual perversion or that those who do it ever mean any harm to the children." ((3)) The conundrum for the health care provider is that a perpetrator's intent is not to be considered in making out a child abuse report and failure to do so can lead to the loss the of a reporter's license. And certain professions are declared by law that they are Mandated Reporter's. Yet, the report is just a report - it is up to other authorities to choose to proceed with the report or decide not to proceed. As a social ritual the authorities include the general populace in the 'Social Body. ((4)) "Investigation is implied in our Mandate." (Anakin Skywalker). movie: Attack of the Clones.

The concept of mock-killing is not just in the ritual of circumcision. ((1)) Johathan Shay in, "Achilles in Vietnam: Combat Trauma and the Undoing of Character," (USMC Reading List), stated: "The goal of mock executions in political torture is to decompose the prisoner's identity and mental reality, substituting the absolute reality of the torturer's world." ((2)) This involves typical criminal behavior, illustrated in the writings by FBI criminal serial sexual profilers. The involvement uses elements of power, control and authority through manipulation for dominance. And, these are the same elements Catherine Bell says are the motivational basis of ritual in her book "Ritual Theory, Ritual Practice." ((3)) The objective of connections is to show how life's situations intertwine - not necessarily totally equivalent. ((3)) "It's a lotta simple tricks and nonsense." (Han Solo). movie: Star Wars.

For mock-death in circumcision rituals see: Philip Slater's "The Glory of Hera: Greek Mythology and the Greek Family," Princeton Univ. Press, 1992. ((1))There is much more than just a sick mock-cannibalism. Slater also relates that: (a) The Poro's when they circumcise both boys and girls have the initiates eat the other sexes exised parts under the concept of incorporating a part of the other sex's power by the opposite sex. (b) Other areas give the parts for the mother's to eat. (c) In some African tribes as the Kikuyu after the circumcision ritual the initiates are allowed to gang-rape and kill an old women. ((2)) It is just, in my perception, it's all built on junk no matter how refined it is presented as civilized behavior. ((3)) "Look at how they massacred my boy" (Vito Corleone). movie: The Godfather.

Richard L. Matteoli said, "Genital rituals are substitute killings in attenuation. Attenuation means the lessening of severity." I had a strange thought about this the other day that may be relevant here, somehow. (Don't take "strange thought" as proof of insanity on my part, mutilationists. Albert Einstein said something like, if an idea doesn't appear absurd at first there's no hope for it." And two-time Nobel laureate Linus Pauling said, "To have good ideas, have lots of ideas." Put this one in that "lots" pile. It may or may not turn out to be a good idea, but it is an idea anyway, and I think an interesting and provocative one deserving of serious consideration and research, perhaps an MRI project not on a baby's brain while he's being circumcised [although that's a worthy project on its own or would be if circumcising weren't a sex crime] but on a circumciser during circumcising.) Here's my to me startling idea. Mammals all have foreskins. (There may be one or two exceptions, but almost all mammals have foreskins.) Reptiles don't. (Maybe there's an exception or two.) Can the persistent power of genital mutilation and the great difficulty in wiping it off the face of the earth, as obviously crazy as mutilating the genitals of children is from a common sense perspective (common sense on the subject having been destroyed through destroying in most of the human mammals in the USA, Jewish and Muslim societies, and a few other places, the penile sense organ common to most all mammals), can circumcising's irrational power over human life be explained by the idea that circumcising is simply an out-of-control, pathological reptilian brain within the genital mutilator, trying to regain control over the later-evolved mammalian brain? Circumcising, in this view, is simply a regression all the way back to our days as reptiles, when foreskinless sex organs were, indeed, normal. In short, circumcisers are reptiles? Male alligators eat their own young if they get a chance to. Back to the mock death ritual, circumcision is society in a mock cannibalism ritual, eating its own young. The mohel sucking the child's blood. The feast following the circumcision. Circumcision isn't just mock child sacrifice. It's mock cannibalism, too, eating the baby after the sacrifice. Eating what, especially? The foreskin. Specifically the prepuce, specifically the sense organ, the ridged band within the foreskin. The most vital part of the baby, the most sexually pleasurable part of his body. Circumcision in the unconscious realm is a pathological attempt on the part of the adults in genitally mutilating societies to acquire not only the sexual power of the new life, but the life power, the life behind the sexual power, for themselves. The baby must die, that the adults might live. Forever. A pathological attempt to steal the baby's life power for the benefit of the thieves, so that they won't have to die. Why mock death for the baby? For mock immortality for the thieves. So this is why "religion" is so messed up with genital mutilation. Who was it saying that we humans will always have evil with us? Child sacrifice is evil. We were supposed to have left it behind with Abraham, when he came back down the mountain with Issac, his son, still alive. Complete Abraham's religious revolution, abolishing child sacrifice: Abolish genital mutilation of children.

Jan says, "If there was any doubt these anti-circs were as nutty as a fruit cake this set of comments confirms it." I thought at first that you were talking about the anti-penis crowd, and agreed with you: "Keep this conversation going so everyone can learn this." I feel the same way, but about the anti-sex mob attacking babies' and children's healthy sex organs essentially for nothing. Is the only argument Jan can put on record here the obvious and pathetic false assertion that his/her opposition is "nutty as a fruit cake"? Bring us facts and reason, not desperate, childish insults.

Tandy says, "Have we now sunk to quoting superstitious babblings? Is there no rational or logical thought that can be brought here anymore?" There has been no announced policy against rational or logical thought on this site. Bring all you want, please. America needs it badly, especially on the subject of children's healthy sex organs, and you are capable of it, rare find that you are. (not sarcasm)

God of Chaos, January 17, 2008 says, "Humanity will always have evil." Always is a long time. I try to stay out of the business of predicting the future for the rest of time, so I respond by saying that you may be right or you may be wrong. I really don't know for sure. "The reason is it is easier to be evil than good." Sometimes that's true, particularly when we don't even know that we're doing evil and think we're doing good, as with infant and child circumcision, but it is true that in general we keep trying to correct our thought and behavior and do good. We have a long way to go, obviously. There is much room for improvement in our consciousness and behavior, might be a positive way of looking at our situation. "To say that getting rid off circumcision would some how bring humanity one-step close -r to morale purity to me shows ignorance and lack off understanding of human nature." I did not say it would bring us closer to "moral purity". I said abolishing the violence of adult genital mutilation of healthy children and babies would bring us closer to a world without violence, a peaceful world. "... Is there anything of which one can say, "Look! This is something new"? How about cell phones? Did they have those in the Bible days? Personal computers? Steam engines? William Shakespeare? ... "I say by now we as humans have ran through every possible combination of society that is possible" I say that's an irrational, incorrect statement. "and therefore will never reach a utopian society." Never is a long time. Maybe you're right and maybe you're wrong, but either way, this argument is not a valid argument against stopping the harmful and dangerous sin of genital mutilation against children and babies once we understand that it is a harmful, dangerous, violent, sexually abusive sin that violates the human rights of the healthy child. Abolish it for all children, not just girls.

"all men must be allowed to make this decision for themselves as adults " Who the hell would risk a ruined sexual life, even if some get a little benefit? Which honest physician would dare taking this risk? Cordially yours, Sigismond

Jan - I am very much anti-circ after having required 7 separate surgeries in an attempt to repair my badly botched infant circumcision - I certainly don't consider myself "nutty as a fruitcake" for being totally against a damaging and useless procedure - it is high time this barbaric practice ended - all men must be allowed to make this decision for themselves as adults - so, as far as I am concerned, the more dialogue, the better as it will continue to bring the clear light of knowledge concerning this practice -

If there was any doubt these anti-circs were as nutty as a fruit cake this set of comments confirms it. Keep this conversation going so everyone can learn this.

"In the United States,... resewing an infibulation scar (reinfibulation) is permitted." http://yourtotalhealth.ivillage.com/female-genital-mutilation.html?pageNum=4 Oh, well, the US case seems desperate; if US physicians may do this with impunity... why should not they castrate everybody there, which would solve the whole problem!!!!!!!!!! Cordially yours, Sigsmond

REPORT: HOMICIDE OF CHILDREN: INTRO 3: ((1)) Genital rituals are substitute killings in attenuation. Attenuation means the lessening of severity. Perpetrators performing amputating or bleeding genital rituals, as well as those observing participants, fulfill themselves in the same manner as any other serial sexual predator. Rituals like the ancient circumcision to the present day prepucectomy are mock-death ceremonies representing an Attenuated Homicise and Psychosexual Homicide:* ((2)) ATTENUATED HOMICIDE is the psychological act of homicide lessened to not cause death and often performed in ritual: specif: circumcision ((3)) PSYCHOSEXUAL HOMICIDE is the killing, inhibiting, or stunting of a part of the normal and healthy psychological growth and development of a person during infancy, childhood, adolescense or adulthood. ((4)) My definitions, Matteoli RL, "Blood Ritual: Socialized Sexual Predation." Possibly soon Dog Ear Publications, 2008. Not sure if I want to do that before finding an editor. But, it's wanted by a few. Might keep as rough draft in house though NOCIRC.

REPORT: HOMICIDE OF CHILDREN: INTRO 2: ((1)) Child homicides are usually committed by women when there is no social involvement. These women are constant caretakers, driven to be perfect mothers, overwhelmed and subsequently depressed. Regarding victim availability, women spend much more time with children than men. Women who commit these murders often use the defense* of psychosis* from postpartum depression. The social defense used is the excuse of being a trapped mother in a male dominated society. These defenses for lighter sentences are successful. ((2)) 'Us News and World Report' explained:* "Even when a mother's mental illness doesn't meet the legal definition of insanity, jurors and the public are whipsawed between horror at the act and sympathy for the troubled mother... In Great Britain, the law sanctions such leniency. There, a mother who kills her children within the first 12 months of life is unlikely to face jail, a legal nod to the fact that, as Duke obstrtrician and psychiatrist Diana Dell puts it, the period right after birth is 'the most biologically vulnerable time in a woman's life psychiatrically.' Dell says postpartum depression affects at least 10 percent of new mothers." ((3)) References: (a)Derbyshire J, "Maternal Madness," National Review, 01 October 2001. (b) Lithwick, Daliah, "When Parents Kill: Why Fathers Do It, Why Mothers Do It," (c) U.S. News and World Report, "Mothers and Murder: Mental illness of often the backdrop for this most baffling of crime," 18 March 2002.

REPORT: HOMICIDE OF CHILDREN: INTRO 1: ((1)) The three socialized forms of child homicide were: neonaticide, infanticide and filicide.* That correlate to the three age groups in ritual circumcision. ((2)) Alan Tuckman stated:* "Ancient civilizations considered children as omens from the gods. Those born with deformations were routinely sacrificed. Asian cultures routinely killed female infants. Roman fathers had the right to murder their children, and Japanese fathers could also have their newborns killed to keep family size down. The slaying of children is an international phenomenon. In certain Eskimo tribes, Indian, and Chinese cultures there is evidence that female neonates are still killed." ((3)) References: (a) J Belsky, (1980) "Child maltreatment: An ecological integration," American Psychologist, 35(4), 320-335. (b) Dietrich D, Berkowitz L, Kadushin A, McGloin J, (1990), Some factors influencing abusers' justification of their child abuse," Child Abuse and Neglect, 14, 337-345. (c) Quoting: Tuckman AJ, "Psychiatry and the Law: Child Murder," SynapseOnLine - last accessed - 14 August 2006: http://www.rfmh.org/whps/Synapse%2011/98.htm.

Hi Tandy: Please have patience with me. I still have to do the Three types of Child Homicide: Neonaticide, Infanticide and Filicide. Had a storm and helping my neighbor who just had open heart surgery clear trees around his house. Tired.

Have we now sunk to quoting superstitious babblings? Is there no rational or logical thought that can be brought here anymore?

"Do you seriously think I am haunted by my circumsion? " What do YOU think? Cordially yours, Sigismond

How does this compute? Sexual pleasure is good and divine. Circumcision is the unthinkable as it is cruel and barbaric and therefore shall be punished! Michael

"Aba Eban said, "History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives." Are we there yet?"Van Lewis Humanity will always have evil. The reason is it is easier to be evil than good. 13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."Matthew 7:13-14 (New International Version) To say that getting rid off circumcision would some how bring humanity one-step close -r to morale purity to me shows ignorance and lack off understanding of human nature. As for you quote. "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. {10} Is there anything of which one can say, "Look! This is something new"? It was here already, long ago;"(Ecclesiastes 1:9-14 NIV) I say by now we as humans have ran through every possible combination of society that is possible and therefore will never reach a utopian society.

"This does not mean that it is not active, either you want it or not."Anonymous You have to be kinding....Oh no a non-existant memory is going to destory my life. (sarcasm) I might as well kill myself now.(sarcasm) Do you seriously think I am haunted by my circumsion?

God of Chaos says,"Wow who would have thought the root of all evil is being circumsied." Only a fool. W.H. Auden said, in his famous poem, September 1, 1939, "I and the public know What all schoolchildren learn, Those to whom evil is done Do evil in return." Revenge is a very deep human motivation. Genital mutilation is far from being the ONLY evil that begets more evil in its wake, but it is a very serious evil and it begets very serious evil. Violence begets violence. I and all school children know this. "I guess all non- circumsied people are above sin." Wrong again, God of Chaos. Genital mutilation is not the only way to commit evil against people, and not the only evil they respond to with more evil of their own. Genitally intact people can easily be abused in other ways and can easily seek revenge for such abuse. Ending the evil violence of genital mutilation is a necessary but not a sufficient condition of ending all violence and establishing peace in the world, but it is an easy way to start. When will we do it? Aba Eban said, "History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives." Are we there yet?

"No, but your GIs went and torture their friends in Guantanamo, madly assuming that they were preparing atomic bombs for the USA. They even used to send their pals in the States lovely pictures of those tortures ... didn't they?"Anonymous Wow who would have thought the root of all evil is being circumsied. I guess all non- circumsied people are above sin.

"I am circumcised and it has never crossed my mind to fly a plane into a building." No, but your GIs went and torture their friends in Guantanamo, madly assuming that they were preparing atomic bombs for the USA. They even used to send their pals in the States lovely pictures of those tortures ... didn't they? Also, your "promised land" America, has not really been invaded by a hordes of fanatics, just a bunch of them with their plane. As non circumcised, I can speak about what that being intact is, a wonderful pleasure, believe me. I also can speak about what it is to be circumcised; it is easy for me to keep my foreskin retracted a fornight or a month and report the terrible damage steming from keratinization. You cannot. So please stop screaming like a circumcised baby. It is too late to get it back. The only efficient thing you can do is a restoration. It'll do you good, for sure. Cordially yours, Sigismond

"Of course, all those so marked for life became fierce up to suicide (kamikaze) warriors (11 september)."Sigismond Wow that if that isn't stereotyping circumcised people than nothing is. I am circumcised and it has never crossed my mind to fly a plane into a building. Some of the statements that I have come across on this debate, more of agree fest, would suggest that you are not circumcised. You talk as if circumcision is a fear tactic. I ask one simple question.... How can you live in fear if you can't even remember it? Think back. Can you remember what happened when you were a baby? You act, as sex is unpleasant if you are circumcised. I ask how come I enjoy it? My take of this debate is a bunch of people talking about something they never experienced. Since being circumcised to them means that every waking breathing moment I live in fear or I was so traumatized by the event that I fly planes into buildings.

" Only the king's wife or mother could bleed him." The same accounted for pharaohs who could chose circumcision or not. This detail reveals the deep nature of mark of enslavement of circumcision - and excision: not only marking like cattle but foremost traumatizing through the most ferocious threat: castration. Of course, all those so marked for life became fierce up to suicide (kamikaze) warriors (11 september). Cordially yours, Sigismond

REPORT: Female Serial Killers: Typology 6: TEAM KILLERS: Subset 3: FAMILY TEAMS: ((1)) This grouping involves 3 or more family members with bot sexes participating. It also includes people who band together into a quasi-familial relationships. Their actions are similar to the Male/Female team. Crimes are sexually violent. ((2)) Analysis: Connection to Munchausen's Collective Transmission is the cultural setting. Genital mutilations are play-death ceremonies.

REPORT: Female Serial Killers: Typology 6: TEAM KILLERS Subset 2: FEMALE TEAMS: ((1)) Two or more females, most often two, with one dominant. Motivations are similar to Angels of Death and Crime for Profit perpetrators. Killings are more silent than male/female teams. ((2)) Analysis: Similarity to Munchausen Syndrome in Collective Transmission involves the social structure of a sisterhood in Female Genital Mutilation.

REPORT: Female Serial Killers Typology 6: TEAM KILLERS: Subset 1: MALE/FEMALE TEAMS: ((1)) This involves a single male and single female pair. This is the most common. They are sexually involved, and crimes are sexually brutal. She is an equal predator. Organizization varies within each relationship. Domination is NOT always the male. ((2)) Analysis: In the macro-social of Munchausen Syndrome in Collective Transmission, the matriarchal and patriarchal functions cannot exist without each other. Genital mutilations, and legalization of abuses involve a tacit social agreement.

REPORT: FEMALE SERIAL KILLERS (FSK) TYPOLOGY 6: TEAM KILLERS 1: ((1)) The more people involved, the more convoluted the crime. Weapon choice varies and they torture victims. Dismemberments are common. Female members are usually the youngest of female serial killers. Average age is between 20 and 25. The more stable the interpersonal relationships among the members the longer activity continues. This category includes one third of female serial killers. It has three subsets: (a) Male/Female Teams, (b) Female Teams, (c) Family Teams.

REPORT: FEMALE SERIAL KILLERS TYPOLOGY 5: FOR PROFIT OR CRIME: ((1)) This crime is complex. It may easily be confused with other types. Foremost, she is a criminal who kills for profit. Unlike the Black Widow who kills relatives and those close to her for profit, she kills victims outside the family unit. Yet, she, like the Black Widow, mainly uses poison. Location of activity is often similar to the Angels of Death. Though she may perpetrate in a nursing home, or as a live-caretaker, she is not practicing within medical perimeters. Also, she is not a member of a team. She is sane. She will meticulously seek out victims previously unknown to her. Unlike the Revenge killer, there is no emotional passion involved in her actions. Any familiarity with victims is a means to an end. She is very organized, precise, patient, manipulative, and mature. ((2)) Turning to murder to enhance income denotes actual and perceived inadequacy. In African Muslim countries it is the older women who perform Female Genital Mutilation for a fee. The cultural setting in these countries is extremely prohibitive to female careers outside the household as well as female educational opportunities. This may be the case of the female heart surgeon who would circumcise her intact patients during heart surgery. She had a pattern of doing this and moved elsewhere when she was sued.

REPORT: FEMALE SERIAL KILLER TYPOLOGY 3: SEXUAL PREDATORS: ((1)) There is only one recorded American instance of a female committing this crime alone. The perpetrator used a gun. The gun may be representative of an emotional sexual dysfunction and represents a penile substitute. For this category feminine participation is usually attached to the masculine in the Team Predator category where she participates often as a facilitator and vicarious bystander. This category will increase with research. ((2) Analysis: Regarding circumcision, the weapons chosen indicate sexual dysfunction. Dysfunctional males often use a knife as a penile substitute whereas the female uses the social weapon as a Clitoral Enhancement. Socially, when males refuse to enforce the genital ritual females will enforce the rite.

REPORT: FEMALE SERIAL KILLER TYPOLOGY 2: ANGELS OF DEATH: ((1)) These killers usually attack those under their care. Victims are the weakest and most infirm, with not ability of self-defense. These killers are subtle and hidden. The excuse is euthenasia. Often, in Munchausen by Proxy, Angels of Death create a medical emergency and come to the rescue presenting themselves as the savior. Tools and methodology are interwoven with their environment. Ego and domination are centers of motivation. They set up control of life and death over their victims. In their minds, these victims have no right to survive in their present state of existence. ((2)) (a) This is often the case with nurses of both sexes. (b) It is a form of the Malignant Hero Syndrome. Medicine always looks for a new new disease to justify genital rituals. (c) Historically it correlates to child sacrifice when the neonate has a birth defect. The common excuse is that they are: 'sent to a better place' instead of saying 'I don't want that defective child.'

REPORT: FEMALE SERIAL KILLER TYPOLOGY 1: BLACK WIDOW: ((1)) She is careful, patient, deliberate, intelligent, organized, and methodical. Victims rarely extend beyond the family and include children, spouses and relatives. She starts after age 30. Victims have confidence and trust in her. She gets close and stays close. Over 90% of the time her method is extended poisoning, but she also suffocates and strangles. She acts as a concerned parent, spouse or relative. Motive is often financial. Psychotic fear of rejection occurs. ((2)) Social Analysis: The Black Widow's age most closely corresponds to the onset of menopause. The post-menopausal Wise Woman maintains the feminine social.* ((3)) Reference: Bonnie Horrigan, "Red Moon Passage: The Power and Wisdom of Menopause," Three Rivers Press, 1996.

REPORT: FEMALE SERIAL KILLERS: ((1))There are 6 motivational types of female serial killers. They are quiet killers. Though discussing the feminine, these motivations do not exclude males, as motivations of rape do not exclude females. ((2)) Connection to socialization is observable. ((3)) The 6 typologies are: (a) Black Widow. (b) Angels of Death. (c) Sexual Predators. (d) Revenge. (e) For Profit or Crime. (f) Team Killers which has 3 subsets. ((4)) Recommendation: Kelleher M and Kelleher C, "Murder Most Rare: The Female Serial Killer."

For the next two sections, as the past Rapist Typologies, that will be Female Serial Killers and Homicide of Children please keep in mind how they relate to acculturated: (a) genital rituals (b) child sacrifice.

Godsofchaos - I'm talking about bulls**t Games, you're talking about downright murder. Child molesters and serial sexual predators - and killers - are different than all others in that they share the same unique pathologic personality typology. You figure it out for yourself if you haven't been able to see my methodoloy.

"You are talking about the Unwanted Child."Richard L. Matteoli Wow that makes shoving a metal spike into a babies skull justified. Don't preach human rights when you ignore the greatest of them all. Life. Just because their unwanted means that they don't have a right to live? Following that path of logic than it is justified to remove any unwanted parts of the child. So before you preach about the horrors of being circumcised please get you priorities straight or at least your message.

LIFE/DEATH/LIFE FORCE: ((1)) I have referred to Clarissa Estes' book: "Women Who Run With the Wolves" numerous times about the feminine L/D/L Force. (a) This means the concept of Birth/Death/Rebirth. The feminine brings forth Life and the concept is that those who have the power to bring forth life also has the power to take the life. And, then to rebirth that life. (b) This concept is everywhere and takes many forms. Christianity's birth, death and resurrection of Jesus is our era's present best example. (c) The feminine Holy Spirit empregnated Mary and gave life. The social, as the social being the feminine with male servants, took back the Life of Jesus in his Death. Then this feminine force brought back his Life in the Resurection. This is the psychological concept. Sorry guys, but this IS a feminine spirituality movement. ((2)) Genital rituals are the same. In our present practice the child is Born in Life into the world as a whole of humanity, then the ritual Death is the genital ritual where the child must experience a Death solely to then be reborn in a new Life into the 'society's properly perceived social order.' ((3)) (a) This concept is also used in fertility rituals. According to ancient thought people believed removing the tip of the foreskin, not even the whole prepuce, enhanced fertility. (b) Fertility ensures species survival, and especially women's indicidual survival in ancient times. (c) It also serves, in thought, to fulfill the feminine Uterine Demand to have a child - it's natural. ((4)) This L/D/L Force in fertility rituals was seen in the ancient Mayas. They would bleed the prepuce making sure the blood hit the ground to fertilize Mother Earth to ensure a good harvest. Also the blood was captured in a bowl and then placed on the earth. Women also were the main bloodletters. Only the king's wife or mother could bleed him. Pain was an essential element - probably to mimic the travails of menstruation and childbirth. ((5)) Next will be Female Serial Killers and the conceptual connection to genital mutilation rituals.

“…not only does not the body of children belong to us but their sex still less.” Françoise Dolto - Cordially yours, Sigismond

Mutilating the genitals of a helpless, innocent infant is criminal behaviour, pure and simple, whether for purported "religious" belief, family tradition, or for supposed medical benefits. Circumsexuals ... "doctors", interns, priests, witch doctors, et al ... who cruelly mutilate children should be arrested, tried, and convicted of sexual child abuse.

“…not only does not the body of children belong to us but their sex still less.” Françoise Dolto - Cordially yours, Sigismond

REPORT: RAPE TYPOLOGY 6: GANG RAPE: ((1)) This is pathological behavior of three or more individuals. They act in play with each other. Victims are always seriousaly injured. ((2)) Analysis: Socialized genital mutilations is an expression of gang rape where all participate in their own particular way during "The Gathering."* This also occurs in some Islamic countries as Malaysia, Bosnia, and Lebanon where Christians of BOTH SEXES are kidnapped circumcised, then released. ((3)) Recommendation: Chris Knight, "Blood Relations." ((4)) "Morons have committed murders so shrewdly that it taken a hundred trained police minds to catch them." (Doyle). movie: Rear Window.

REPORT: RAPE TYPOLOGY 5: OPPORTUNISTIC RAPIST: ((1)) This form of rape occurs when the perpetrator is committing another act as burglary. It is impulsive because the ability to commit the crime is present. Minimal force is used and time with the victim is short. It is the only rape where sexual satisfaction is primary over power. Power is already established from the crime of origin as burglary. Here the victim is bound rendering escape impossible. ((2)) Analysis: This has occurred many times in hospitals.. It used to happen when a physician saw an uncircumcised male infant and circumcised him. In the past this was treated with impunity in the doctor's favor by peer review committes. Due to recent law suits physicians are beginning to understand the consequences from such pre-emptive action. Circumcisions have also occured to patients undergoing other operations as heart surgery where the procedure was not discussed prior to the heart surgery. One heart surgeon has done this more than once - when sued she just moves elsewhere. ((3)) "You're so adorable when you're going in for the kill." (Sara). movie: Laws of Attraction.

REPORT: RAPE TYPOLOGY 4: ANGER EXCITATION RAPIST - SADISTIC: ((1)) This is the most dangerous rape. Hospitalization often required. Perpetrators are impulsive and opportunistic. Control is paramount. Perpetrators experience sexual dysfunction. They are the most methodical and well planned in performance. Every detail is carefully planned rehersed, and acted out in detail and exactness. ((2)) Analysis: (a) For genital mutilating rituals every detail is carefully planned, rehersed and acted out - a set ritual. A physician or mohel has a tool kit. Bindings are used as the Circumstraint. (b) The correlations of anger are hidden envies, resentments and self-experience. The exxitation is not necessarily sexual, but in the power derived in doing the act. ((3)) "We're dealing with a very organized killer. He's someone who plans. His killings, they're random spur of the moment things. He only kills who he wants to kill. Low risk victims and low risk areas." (O'Hara). movie: Bloodmoon.

REPORT: RAPE TYPOLOGY 3: ANGRY RETALIATORY RAPIST - DISPLACED: ((1)) Assaults require hospitalization. Perpetrators are violent and impulsive in expressing control. Often they rip off the victim's clothes. The perpetrator predator experiences sexual dysfunction. This is the most common form of date and spousal rape. ((2)) Analysis: (a) This usually occurs right after birth. The mother says if she had to go through childbirth he should be circumcised. (b) The masculine element may be exampled when a mohel, once reported as radiating hostility, during a circumcision/precupectomy, he was performing and said to the effect that: 'Every time we circumcise a Jewish child we are getting revenge upon the anti-Semites who wanted to crush us.'* This ritual expert's actions may very well indicate an identity conflict in the form of Munchausen Syndrome in Social Transference. ((3)) Reference: Lila Hanft, "Becoming a Jewish Mother," Cleveland Jewish News, 17 May 2006. ((4)) "You can't give back what you've taken from me." (Archer). movie: Face Off.

REPORT: RAPE TYPOLOGY 2: POWER ASSERTIVE RAPIST - EXPLOITIVE: ((1)) The victim is in the same age range. Perpetrator does not doubt their sexuality but assaults to reassure it. Perpetrator, here males, wants other men to see him as a man's man. He has a macho seld-image. They are aggressive but not lethal. ((2)) Analysis: (a) This also occurs when women or men ask their sexual partner or potential partner to be mutilated. By having the victim do this, power in the relationship is forever established. The power is still present even when the relationship discontinues. From this they will have a "Psychological Token" to relive when desired, just as a male rapist who takes and object. (b). In primitive societies same sex perpetration of genital mutilations occurs during initiation rites. Accordin to deMause, this is also incestuous. They are saying, in essence, they went through the ritual to be an adult and so must the initiate. This reinforces the elders sexuality. And an example of Munchausen Syndrome in Collective Transmission. The perpetrator was a prior victim. ((3)) "It excites him. Most serial killers keep some sort of trophies from their victims." (Clarice). movie: Silence of the Lambs.

RAPE TYPOLOGY 1: POWER REASSURANCE RAPIST - COMPENSATORY: ((1)) Stranger to stranger rape. Power is gained through sex. No other physical injury than the rape itself. Victims are complimented, and asked if they are pleased. Perpoetrator doubts their sexuality - masculinity here. It is as if the perpetrator's unhappy personal history somehow explains and mitigates the denigration and trauma that is being inflicted on the victim. Crimes are ritualistic. ((2)) Analysis: The psychology is to create a WILLING victim through an admission by the victim that they are being pleased. The aura of victim willingness to be sacrificed for both sexes as victims is essential in religious rituals in genital mutilations. Also this is seen in public forums from those advocating the positives of genital mutilation, and the perpetrator's preferences. ((3)) Reference on victim willingness to be sacrificed in ritual: Joseph Campbell, "The Power of Myth." ((4)) "He really wants someone to think what he's doing is an art. I think we're looking for someone desparate for acceptance." (Helen). movie: Copycat.

REPORT: RAPE 1: ((1))Genital mutilations are rapes.* There are 6 types of rapists.* Actions and motivations of rapists apply to genital mutilators of either sex. This also transfers to the society that perpetrates the mutilation. 76% of rapists were sexual victims as youngsters* which indicates genital rituals are forms of Munchausen Syndrome in Collective Transmission. ((2)) The next posts will Michaud's and Hazelwood's 6 typologies. ((3)) (a) WKC Morgan, "Rape of the Phallus," Journal of the American Medical Association, vol. 173, July 2, 1960. (b) John Douglas, Ann Burgess, Allen Burgess, Robert Ressler, "CRIME CLASSIFICATION MANUAL: A Standard System for Investigating and Classifying Violent Crimes." (c) Steven Michaud with Roy Hazelwood, "The Evil That Men Do."

Ignaz Semmelweis and the "Semmelweis Reflex". Anyone wishing to understand the issue of infant circumcision in the USA, and the U.S. medical profession's part in it and response to it, needs to hear and understand the story of Semmelweis and understand the Semmelweis reflex. Wikipedia has a good presentation and google will give you references to deeper detail. Here is the short version. Semmelweis discovered in the mid-1800s, before Pasteur and the germ theory of disease (the same time that British and U.S. medicine started adopting circumcision to "cure" masturbation, ironically) that if obstetricians would just wash their hands before seeing women in labor, the death rate from childbed fever would drop almost to zero. The medical profession took offense at the idea that they might be harming and killing women and babies, and refused to accept or even try or examine Semmelweis' reports of concrete results in his hospital. Thus, "Semmelweis reflex" is "the dismissing or rejecting out of hand any information, automatically, without thought, inspection, or experiment." Medicine does the same today with the modern scientific neuroanatomy of the male foreskin and the importance for normal human sexual development of leaving normal human sexual structures and functions intact. Perhaps the reflex is misnamed. Should we call it the "U.S. physician's reflex"? You can see a perfect illustration of the Semmelweis reflex in action by reviewing the posts of Neal Feldman below. Neal admitted that he had never even considered circumcision before reading my article about it posted above by Salem-News.com. And yet he dismisses and rejects "out of hand any information, automatically, without thought, inspection, or experiment" that challenges his presuppositions, his cultural indoctrination, on the subject. Not only that, he does to us who know better exactly what medical doctors did for decades to Ignaz Semmelweis. They called him every dirty name in the book and ran him out of medicine. He died in a mental hospital a broken man. (I don't think Neal or anyone else can do that to me but medicine did it to Semmelweis.) It was long after Semmelweis died that medicine was finally forced to accept hand washing for doctors and health practitioners as an essential precaution against health workers transmitting infectious organisms and diseases to patients. Even now medicine still attempts to blame SEMMELWEIS for its OWN FAILURE! A U.S. medical doctor published in the 21st century a book laying the blame for this massive failure that cost so many people their lives on the personality of Semmelweis rather than the pathetic arrogance of doctors. This is one of the more despicable tactics used by mutilationists against intactivists. You know the lines: "If you weren't so (you choose the pejorative language, Neal can help) maybe somebody would listen to you. As it is everybody knows you're a monomaniacal delusional nutter etc ad infinitum. End of discussion." The issue wasn't Semmelweis's personality 150 years ago. It was the observed fact that obstetricians were killing women and babies right and left and that washing physicians' hands solved the problem. The medical profession reflexively refused to examine the discovery and still today blames Semmelweis for its own failure to do so. Today it's the discovery of the neuroanatomy and other anatomy and normal, important functions of the normal, important ridged band and prepuce to normal human sexual development and life, and medicine's and U.S. society's adamant refusal to examine the facts. Neal shows it best: "Semmelweis reflex" in action.

MAKE LOVE WITH YOUR FORESKIN, NOT WAR WITHOUT IT MOTHERS AN FATHERS FROM ALL COUNTRIES, DO NOT THROW BABY'S CLITORIS OR FORESKIN OUT WITH THE BATH WATER BRING THE WHOLE BABY HOME THEIR BODY, THEIR RIGHT Cordially yours, Sigismond

Well said God's warrior Michael; when one has a good gun in one's pants, one does not need any other... Cordially yours, Sigismond

ANALYSIS: Child Molestation: ((1)) There is an amount of cross-over between the Fixated and Regressed with the social ritual of genital blood rituals. ((2)) Joshua's last attempt with Feminine Preference shows the Regressed Subsitution and Offense of demanding circumcision/prepucectomy for a sex trade-off.

REPORT: CHILD MOLESTATION 5: REGRESSED TYPOLOGY: ((1)) Primary sexual orientation is to same age. ((2)) Involvement may be more episodic and may wax and wane with stress. ((3)) Female victims are primary target. ((4)) 'Substitution:' Offender replaces conflictual adult relationships with behavior to the level of the child, pseudo-adult relationship. ((5)) Offense - maladaptive attempt to cope with specific stresses.

REPORT: CHILD MOLESTATION 4: FIXATED TYPOLOGY: ((1)) Primary sexual orientation is to children. ((2)) Persistent interests and compulsive behavior. ((3)) Male victims are primary target. ((4)) 'Identification:' offender identifies closely with the victim and equalizes behavior to the level of the child and/or adopt a pseudo-parental role ((5)) Offense - maladaptive resolution of life development (maturation).

REPORT: CHILD MOLESTATION 3: TYPOLOGY B: ((1)) Another typoloigy of child molesters is that they are Fixated or Regressed. Fixated most closely represents infant and child genital mutilation with stress to male genital mutilation. Regressed most closely represents demands for adult genital mutilation to both sexes depending on the culture and current power relations including improper medicine.* ((2)) Reference for this and the next 2 posts: Peter Banning, "Typology of Child Molesters," 'Breaking the Cycle: A Fresh Look,' Chapter 5 - Myths, Exlibrus, 2000. Can be googled.

REPORT: CHILD MOLESTATION 2: TYPOLOGY A: ((1)) One typology of child molesters separates them into two types: (a) Situational and (b) Preferential. ((3)) The Situational child molester has four subsets (a) Regressed, (b) Morally Indiscriminate, (c) Sexually Indiscriminate, (d) Inadequate. ((4)) Genital mutilators mainly fit the Situational Child Molester subset Morally Indiscriminate, though the other sub-sets cannot be totally excluded because social rituals like gential mutilations allow everyone to participate with their own particular quirk. ((5)) Criteria for the Situational, Morally Indiscriminate are (a) Basic Characteristics: - User of people. (b) Motivation: - Why Not? (c) Victim criteria: - Vulnerability and opportunity. (d) Method of Operation: - Lure, force, or manipulation. ((6)) MISHA 's father may possibly be by the force of his demands luring and manipulating Oregon's courts. ((7)) Reference: Kenneth Lanning, FBI, "Child Molesters: A Behavioral Analysis," 1992 - can be googled. Prior publication: Robert Roy Hazelwood and Ann W. Burgess, FBI, Practical Aspects of of Rape Investigation: A Multi-Discipline Approach."

REPORT: CHILD MOLESTATION 1: ((1)) Child molesters believe they do no wrong and improve their victim's lives.* Child molesters and serial killers are different than other criminals and share the same personality type.* Child molestation, as opposed to rape, is about sex.* Their attack neutralizes their greatest threats first.* In genital amputation rituals this would be the parent. ((2)) References: (a) Lambiet J, "Attorney's suspension may delay trial," Sun Sentinel, Florida, 17 May 1998. (b). "Child Molestation: A National Crisis," google this - from psychiatrist from Nevada State Prisons. (c)Connie Fletcher, "What Cops Know." (d) John Douglas with Mark Olshaker, FBI, "Obsession."

ANALYSIS Child Abuse 2: ((1)) The flint knife, or other instrument used, represents penile function. The blood represents the feminine. Socially sexual gratification is mainly intended for another person at a later date and for a person to obtain a sexual partner. Genital mutilations, in a de Sadian way, are meant to desensitize the sexual organs. Thus, the ritual of circumcision/prepucectomy serves two sexual outlets. (a) first is during the act itself.* (b) second is for sexual and social control throughout the victim's lifetime. ((2)) Reference: NOTE: one which Joshua referred to in support to male genital modification: "Some Women Find Circumcision Erotic." http://www.circlist.org/cmatriarchslut.html

ANALYSIS Child Abuse 1: ((1)) Genital modifications to children are intentional sexual contacts that alter and damage the child. At times, perpetrating males experience erection and females become aroused. Female participants often perceive a deep religious experience in seeing the glans penis exposed for the first time. This indicates participation in his first sexual experience as if his penis was mature just like raping an infant girl. In the strict Jewish rite of circumcision women are not present. Now, however, women observe with front seat status. Many even hold their infant while the ritual occurs. And, women are now becoming mohels - religious experts. deMause considers circumcisions of all types, including the prepucectomy, incestuous. ((2)) Reference: deMause, Lloyd, "The Universality of Incest," The J. of Psychohistory, Fall 1991, vol. 19, no. 2:123-164. http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/06a1_incest.html

REPORT: CHILD ABUSE 2: Monteleone also in "Recognition of Child Abuse for the Mandated Reporter" states: "Child Abuse involves every segment of society and crosses all social, ethnic, religious, and professional lines. The definition of child abuse can range from a narrow focus, limited to intentional inflicted injury, to a broad scope, covering any act that adversely affects the development potential of a child. Included in the definition are neglect (acts of omission) and physical, psychological, or sexual injury (acts of commission) by a parent or caretaker. INTENT is not considered in reporting abuse; PROTECTION of the child is paramount." Caps. added.

REPORT: CHILD ABUSE 1: ((1)) Abuse is defined in dictionaries as: a corrupt act or custom and a wrongful use, which injures and damages. It is a deceptive improper use or treatment and can involve physical maltreatment. ((2)) Regarding Sexual Abuse Monteleone's "Recognition of Child Abuse for the Mandated Reporter" states: "Sexual abuse occurs between a child and an adult or older child and is defined as sexual contact or interaction for sexual stimulation and gratification of the adult or older child, who is a parent or caretaker and responsible for the child's care. Sexual abuse is a form of child abuse and must be reported to state child protective services." ((3)) NOTE: When I put REPORT for my posts they are Mandated Reports to the social body, our society, about our society's child abuse on the socio-cultural level.

REPORT: CHILD MALTREATMENT TYPOLOGIES:((1)) The National Association of Counsel for Children defines four types of child maltreatment: (a) PHYSICAL ABUSE: Nonaccidental physical injury as a result of caretaker acts. Physical abuse frequently includes: shaking, slapping, punching, beating, kicking, biting and burning. (b) SEXUAL ABUSE: Involvement is with dependent developmentally immature children and adolescents in sexual activities which they do not fully comprehend and to which they are unable to give informed consent. Sexual abuse includes touching, fondling and penetration. (c) NEGLECT: Failure of caretakers to provide for a child's fundamental needs. Although neglect can include children's necessary emotional needs, neglect typically concerns adequate food, housing, clothing, medical care and education. (d) EMOTIONAL / PSYCHOLOGICAL ABUSE: This is habitual verbal harassment of a child by disparaging criterion, threat and ridicule. Emotional or psychological abuse includes behavior that threatens or intimidates a child. It includes threats, name calling, belittling and shaming. ((2)) MISHA is experiencing all forms of Child Maltreatment due to his father's possible need to dominate and punish his x-wife. This type of case happens often with divorce. Genital rituals as Physical Abuse in a nonaccidental event. As sexual Abuse it is an alteration of the genitals which is common in Sexual Sadism. In Neglect, the social is involved by its participation in this abuse. For Emotional and Psychological Abuse the threat to MISHA'S genitals is intimidating forcing a subordination to the father and subordination to belong to a social group, and being a minor his right to consent is subordinated to the parent demanding the genital alteration and the social group demanding the prepucectomy which is not the ritual under the original Abrahamic Tradition which is the basis of the claim to do such.

REPORT: CHILD MALTREATMENT: ((1)) The American government defines Child Maltreatment as: "The physical and mental injury, sexual abuse, negligent treatment or maltreatment of a child under the age of 18 by a person who was responsible for the child's welfare under circumstances which indicate that the child's health or welfare is harmed or threatened."* ((2)) Note: THREATENED. Misha by virtue of the court case being decided is experiencing CHILD MALTREATMENT on both the individual and social level. ((3))*Reference: National Association of Counsel Children.

REPORT: TRAUMA. ((1)) There are two types of trauma. (a) Type I may be a single short-term event such as rape, assault, or even beating. This is the the event of circumcision/prepucectomy. (b) Type II involves repeated long term exposure within chronic victimization. This involves socialized genital rituals where the chronic aspect is whenever the ritual event takes place and even during urination. Women who are extensively circumcised may take up to 30 minutes to urinate. Previous victims are reminded of their status.

"Since circumcision is not an operation with the intent of killing.I survived circumcision and live a happy life people who are aborted can't make such a statement."
WHO gives a damn about INTENT? I am only concerned with the outcome--and that is senseless and unnecessary harm and damage. If you are happy with only 1/4 of your penile sensation and sensitivity, who cares? Many DO care, and to rob them of this without their consent is nothing less than criminal!

Godsofchaos: You did not have a circumcision. You had a prepucectomy. Go back and read my posts. I don't want to keep repeating. The ritual is a MOCK DEATH ceremony. The book I got this from is not worth the average person buying so I won't reference it. I'm trying to do a logical sequence on Criminology first. The court is deciding the MISHA case NOW, nothing new can be presented to the court, but they can read the paper and forums like this. This forum is an outside chance that the courts are reading. And these connections I'm doing is not allowed. There is an innocent Muslim man in jail for doing a female circumcision on his daughter because this stuff and other stuff was not allowed. After some more typologies of serial predators, I will get into the three forms of Child Homicide. Don't introduce abortion to this issue. Take what I'm doing and use it elsewhere. NOW, if you are serious about abortion get the two books I recommended. Right now you are operating on emotions. Educate yourself to the big picture. Your path has many steps. You have your answer, but you don't know WHY. To jump far ahead of my pathway, google Munchausen Syndrome and Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy. You are talking about the Unwanted Child. We are talking about the games being played with the wanted child. Also, look up Cortical Adrenal Hyperplasia which is a genetic defect common to certain populations which is part of the genital ritual thing. You will see abortion and genital rituals are two different topics, that have some similarities.

"'Hard to see the Dark Side is.' (Yoda). movie: The Phantom Menace?"Richard L. Matteoli What are you trying to imply or say here? "For your purposes, it would be best and easiest to stop circumcision before discussing the abortion venue."Richard L. Matteoli I think it would be better to stop abortion before circumcision. Since circumcision is not an operation with the intent of killing.I survived circumcision and live a happy life people who are aborted can't make such a statement.

Van and Godsofchaos: ((1)) Cut the abortion issue, you both agree in principle as far as I can see. This forum is about circumcision and a child named MISHA. ((2)) GODSOFCHAOS the power of abortion and circumcision/prepecectomy resides in the same place. For your purposes, it would be best and easiest to stop circumcision before discussing the abortion venue. ((3)) REFERENCES: To understand the immense power you are dealing with, get the books by: (a) Jungian psychologist Clarissa Estes', "Women Who Run With the Wolves," and (b) Erich Neumann's "The Great Mother." ((4)) Then as a basis keep in mind the statement on Estes' pg. 9 "Who is the Wild Woman? She is the Life/Death/Life force." ((5)) Then correlate both books to: (a) Why there is a psychological connection to goddesses as goddesses of war, dismemberment, and blood. Forget Ares, he's the male servant. (b) Why it was God's feminine half, the Holy Spirit, who 'empregnated' Mary. The bible doesn't say God the Father played 'hide the salami' with Mary like when Zeus empregnated Alcheme to produce Heracles. (c) Why the Jewish testament says in Genesis that humans were made in "our" image. ((6)) The first 5a being the feminine Dark side, the latter 5b being the feminine Light side. This is similar to the masculine Light/Dark sides of God vs. Devil. ((7)) In chemistry Like Dissolves Like, these are feminine issues. For the masculine, it determines which feminine he chooses to serve. Both the Anti-abortion and anti-circumcision organizations that are most effective are run by women. ((8)) 'Hard to see the Dark Side is.' (Yoda). movie: The Phantom Menace?

God of chaos says, "So your " That should be "you're". "going to whine about circumcision over stepping human rights" I'm not whining. I'm castrating circumcising. Castrating is not whining. "but then proceed to tell me that PBA doesn't overstep the bounds of human rights." I've never told you or anyone else any such thing. This forum is not about abortion. It's about genital mutilation.

"So anyone who circumcises a healthy boy is committing a federal felony."Van Lewis While were at it lets arrest the abortion doctors. "but claiming that babies don't have the right to life is incorrect according to current US law and court rulings."Van Lewis The term "Partial Birth Abortion" was recently created by pro-life groups when the procedure became actively discussed at a political and religious level. We will generally use the medical terms in this section. "The procedure is usually performed during the fifth month of gestation or later. The woman's cervix is dilated, and the fetus is partially removed from the womb, feet first. The surgeon inserts a sharp object into the back of the fetus' head, removes it, and inserts a vacuum tube through which the brains are extracted. The head of the fetus contracts at this point and allows the fetus to be more easily removed from the womb." So your going to whine about circumcision over stepping human rights but then proceed to tell me that PBA doesn't overstep the bounds of human rights.

As I remember it now, Neal Feldman said something important earlier in this process that I have been wanting to comment on. Can't find the quote at the moment but his point, as I remember it, was that laws that are unconstitutional are invalid from the moment they were created, not from the moment they were declared unconstitutional. Such a declaration absolves guilt not just of parties who violate the law after the declaration, but also those convicted of violating it any time before the declaration. The obviously sexist provision in the federal Anti-female Genital Mutilation Act limiting its protections to females only is unconstitutional on its face because of its blatant denial of equal protection of the law to all children who have genitals, and therefore has been invalid from the start. This means that the federal Anti-Genital Mutilation Act has applied equally to all children from the start, regardless of sex, religion of the parents, or any other factor, and boys are protected by the law now and have been since it took effect on 30 March, 1997. So anyone who circumcises a healthy boy is committing a federal felony. Jail, jail, jail.

Godsofchaos says, "Van Lewis I must of missed it when it became allowed for a child to buy a car," That is not a right. Certainly not a human right. "drive a car" Neither is that. "own a house" Nor that. "drink" Nor that, if you're talking about drinking alcohol. "smoke" Nor that. "join the army" Nor that. "vote" Nor that. "run for office" Nor that. "Last time I checked that list above would be considered rights." Check again. They are not human rights. Some are privileges, some may be legal rights is some cases. My statement is about human rights. Children have more than adults. " Also last time I check -ed it wasn't legal to murder adults obviously babies don't hold such rights(abortion)." That depends on how you define the word "babies". If by "babies" you mean "already born children", then they most certainly do have the right to not be murdered. In the USA today the not-yet-born are not defined as "babies" in the sense of being already born human beings. Some people think the definition should be changed to include everything all the way back to the fertilized egg before dividing the first time. It's their right to believe this and to try to get the society to change the definition, but claiming that babies don't have the right to life is incorrect according to current US law and court rulings. "So please tell me how babies and childern have more rights." Already born human beings all have the same inalienable human rights. These are enumerated in the International Declaration of Human Rights. Look it up. Read it. Educate yourself. Children have additional human rights that adults do not. These were enumerated in the International Convention on the Rights of the Child. Look it up. Read it. Educate yourself. Sigismond said, "As an entire fellow, I can say that never on earth, at any price, shall I separate myself from it. It is the most enjoyable part of my sex, indispensable for autosexuality, and it would be totally mad to deprive myself from it." God of chaos said in response, "That is why you will never understand why I am not anti- circumcision and vise versa." I think you can both come to understand each other. It just takes more communication. Thanks to Salem-News.com for providing that important opportunity to all of us. Van Lewis said, "What would the Oregon Supreme court say" ... "to any adult who wanted to cut out any child's healthy eyes, inner ears, or tongue?" God of chaos asks, "Van Lewis Wow what sensory organ did I lose." Thanks for asking, "God". It's called the "ridged band" by the scientists who discovered it in the early 1990s. It is a highly complex, highly organized, highly vascularized (lots of blood supply), highly innervated (lots of nerve supply) human sense organ new to science in the 1990s, found in the inner foreskin, encircling the preputial opening. You were born with one but don't have one any more. It was cut off when you were circumcised as a baby. That violated your human right to have all of your body. It's called the right to bodily integrity. Sorry, but that's the bad news truth. The good news truth is that you can grow a substitute foreskin back with your own skin, time and effort. No surgery involved. It probably will not contain a ridged band sense organ as your original foreskin did, but a faux-skin is a lot better than having no foreskin at all. God of chaos asks, "Can non-circumcised people see through walls or something?" No, scientists and other intelligent human beings can look through microscopes and discover important things about penises that no one ever knew before, like the fact that the highest density of nerve endings so far discovered in the penis is in this newly discovered sense organ in the foreskin. God of chaos asks, "What exactly does it 'sense'." No need for quotes around the word. It senses. Really. Full of Meissner's corpuscle nerve endings, it is known to sense fine touch, like the high densities of Meissners corpuscles in the lips and finger tips and eyelids do. Ever felt any pleasure in your lips while kissing? If they had cut off your eyelids when you were born, or more to the point, cut out your eyes, do you think it would have negatively impacted your ability to see? The God of chaos is a false god. This universe is not made of chaos. "Chaos" is merely a failure of perception. This universe is made of order and the real God creates it profligately and beautifully. Looking at foreskin tissue through microscopes reveals high order. Chaos is far overrated. Order is where it's at. Study, God of chaos. Learn. Sorry to hear the bad news about your ridged band being cut off when you were a baby. You lost the diabolical US circumcision lottery. But you can learn about it if you have or develop the guts to, and then you can help stop this tragic mistake from destroying other babies' ridged bands. Small but important comfort for the genitally mutilated. Saving babies from unnecessary injury and reckless endangerment and sometimes death is a real trip and can be a whole lot of fun. Give it a try. You might like it.

Godsofchaos, re: post Jan 10. ((1)) I think some of your examples of rights are actually privileges like driving a car, etc. ((2)) But either way, possessing rights and privileges demands responsibility. ((3)) Good question about lost senses.

"They have more human rights than adults have."Van Lewis I must of missed it when it became allowed for a child to buy a car,drive a car, own a house, drink, smoke, join the army, vote,and run for office. Last time I checked that list above would be considered rights. Also last time I check -ed it wasn't legal to murder adults obviously babies don't hold such rights(abortion). So please tell me how babies and childern have more rights. "As an entire fellow, I can say that never on earth, at any price, shall I separate myself from it. It is the most enjoyable part of my sex, indispensable for autosexuality, and it would be totally mad to deprive myself from it."Sigismond That is why you will never understand why I am not anti- circumcision and vise versa. "to any adult who wanted to cut out any child's healthy eyes, inner ears, or tongue?" Van Lewis Wow what sensory organ did I lose. Can non-circumcised people see through walls or something? What exactly does it "sense".

" I was circumcised as a baby so excuse me if I don't quite see what the big deal about this is." The great problem with men circumcised in infancy is that they have not got the slightest idea of what they have lost, simply because they never experienced how extremely enjoyable the foreskin is. As an entire fellow, I can say that never on earth, at any price, shall I separate myself from it. It is the most enjoyable part of my sex, indispensable for autosexuality, and it would be totally mad to deprive myself from it. Cordially yours, Sigismond

"Some religions feel its important to circumcise their daughters." Girls or boys, one must face the fact that THE AUTOSEXUAL ORGAN is destroyed. This destruction is proned by puritan cultures or religions (Judeo-Christian and Muslim religions notably). Now, the whole psychoanalysis teaches us that the repression of autosexuality is at the root of the formation of the unconscious, and thus of mental disease. Autosexaulity is indeed the very first natural sexuality, begining inside the womb were the fetus gaily practises autosexuality, up to autofellatio..., which has been observed through ultrasound. How do you want that the child should not be highly traumatized when his main autosexual instrument is painfully and irremediably destroyed?!!! Cordially yours, Sigismond (researcher in psychoanalysis)

God of chaos says, " I was circumcised as a baby so excuse me if I don't quite see what the big deal about this is." If your mutilation had killed you you might not have been able to see what the big deal is either, but your mother might have. Being unable to see what the big deal is, about violating children's bodies and human rights, doesn't make it OK to violate them. It just makes you unable. One of the insidious things about circumcising children is that it gives the adults they become high incentives to be unable to see what the big deal is. The desire to not understand the problem makes it easy to not be able to see it. I think they call it denial. "As for death of a child I think abortion needs to stop way before we panic about how circumcision kills." I am not advocating that we panic. I am advocating that we stop killing children for nothing. The method of killing is irrelevant. It is the killing itself that must stop. What is relevant is whether we can correct our genitally mutilative abusive misbehavior toward our children and their sex organs. Godofchaos claims, falsely, that "Children have very little rights as children." The fact is that children have every human right that adults have, plus additional human rights due to their special vulnerability that adults do not have. They have more human rights than adults have. God of chaos says "For example the government can decide to uproot a child from his family even though they have to drag him out of the house kicking and screaming. Salem News had an article on this very issue." And when they do it without just cause they are violating the human rights of the parents and the child. Godoofchaos: "A parent can adopt children and give their children up for adoption. A parent has almost complete legal control over their children." But NO ILLEGALl control. Parents cannot, for example HARM their children. Circumcising always harms. "So form a legal state point it to me seems legal." And to a lot of other misinformed and ignorant people including lawyers and judges, unfortunately for the many children whose bodies and human rights are being violated by such erroneous opinions and who are being injured and killed by genital mutilation. "Heck right now a parent can decide if their child lives or dies on a whim. I believe they call it pro- choice." There is serious legal dispute in this country over whether a fetus is a child. Some people believe abortion, of even a fertilized egg, is killing a child. Some do not. The current law of the land is that fetuses are not children, in the legal sense of having all the human rights that adults have plus having the extra human rights that only children have. There is NO serious dispute over whether children already born are children. Killing already born children is illegal. I believe they call it murder.

Sigismond says, "What would happen if all judges considered violation of the body through butchering the child's sex as a sport?" Circumcising Children - America's Last Blood Sport. "Don't take it away from us, not the very last one!", they scream.

In the futile hope of stopping this debate from being side-tracked into the abortion one, I should point out that the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act, signed by GBW in 2002 in the presence of several "pro-life" leaders, gave *born* children full human rights. This makes the difference between the rights of baby girls and baby boys that much more stark - and unconsitutitional.

Godsofchaos - I like that. Your post on 09 Jan: ((1)) 'Circumcised as a child - what does it matter.' Your moniker. Maybe it should matter. The INNER ANGST. Your circumcision is remembered. Deep inside the part you cannot consciously reach. The Lizard Brain, so to speak. That's where most of our pre-verbal memories reside. ((2)) The rise of serial killers started 10 years after the socialization of circumcision/prepucectomy. ((3)) It was not just your penis that was attacked. Circumcision/prepucectomy is also an attack on your masculinity. ((4)) Peo-choice has a lot of similarities with pro-circumcision, but that lies in the existential. ((5)) Slavery waas once legal. ((6)) "They remember." (Mulldoon). movie: Jurassic Park.

Godofchaos, God-of-chaos – interesting name – A parent can't choose to trim their daughters labia and remove her preputial hood (female foreskin) = FGM type one (same as MGM type one) for the sake of pro-choice or religion. Some religions feel its important to circumcise their daughters. The "cutters" support 'medical claims' to justify FGM. The current laws protecting girls from circumcision make no exemption to cultural, cosmetic, hygienic, religion, or medically unnecessary reasons. She also must wait to the age of 18 before undergoing the operation herself. The 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution states that, “…everyone has the same protection under law and shall not be deprived of that equal protection.” It is clear that fully protecting girls from any form of genital cutting but not boys is unconstitutional. Intact genitals are the birth right of both genders, not just females. Michael Glass came up with a good solution to the Misha case. Wait until he is 18 to decide if he wants to undergo circumcision. Its not the parents penis, or the practitioner's penis, its not the Mohels penis, it belongs to the boy who will live with his own genitals for the rest of his life.

Just to add something: I was circumcised as a baby so excuse me if I don't quite see what the big deal about this is. As for death of a child I think abortion needs to stop way before we panic about how circumcision kills. "Parents do not own "their" (as we say) children."Van Lewis Depends what you define as ownership. Children have very little rights as children. For example the government can decide to uproot a child from his family even though they have to drag him out of the house kicking and screaming.Salem News had an article on this very issue. A parent can adopt children and give their children up for adoption. A parent has almost complete legal control over their children.Make reference to legal guardian. So form a legal state point it to me seems legal. Heck right now a parent can decide if their child lives or dies on a whim. I believe they call it pro- choice.

To make it clearer, self-mutilation is not criminal, collaborating to mutilation is criminal. Cordially yours, Sigismond

"to prohibit the circumcision until the boy became of legal age and could make his own decision" Disturbing a physician through asking for mutilation is unlawful; every one knows it is not a physician's job to mutilate people. So the doctor would be obliged to kindly send the lunatic would consult with such a bid back home and explain him the usefulness of the prepuce. Cordially yours, Sigismond

"What would happen if the noncustodial parent of a child objected to allowing participation in a risky sport, such as football?" What would happen if all judges considered violation of the body through butchering the child's sex as a sport? Dismiss the scandalous judge, for heaven's sake; we do not pay him wages for life to express utterly shameful personal opinions in courts. Cordially yours, Sigismond

Michael Glass makes several good points about the Misha case and then concludes, "Myself, I believe the best solution would be to order a delay to the circumcision until the boy reaches 18. Then he can decide the issue for himself." There is also already good legal precedent for this in the recent Chicago case, where the judge solved the dispute between the parents in exactly that way. The uncorrectable injury to the child was what made the judge, who was Jewish by the way, decide to prohibit the circumcision until the boy became of legal age and could make his own decision. I think that is not only the best solution for Misha, his parents, and the Oregon Supreme Court, but also for our nation and the world. The involuntary circumcising of children not only cuts off the sexiest part of the penis, it cuts off something even more precious, the free will and self determination of the victim. Circumcising violates the most fundamental human rights human beings have. Mutilating the healthy sex organs of anyone without getting their own fully informed adult consent, in writing, should be understood as the criminal activity that it is. I think Michael has discovered the logical solution for Misha and for all children in the world, and that is for adults to mind their own business and leave children's healthy sex organs alone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Let the boy decide, when he's eighteen if he wants to be Jewish. If he does, he free to have himself altered. Once your altered there's no going back to the intact state that nature intended for all men. One of the most valid comments against circumcision comes from the Jewish Physician Maimonides, who said: With regard to circumcision, one of the reasons for it is, in my opinion, the wish to bring about a decrease in sexual intercourse and a weakening of the organ in question, so that this activity be diminished and the organ be in as quiet a state as possible. It has been thought that circumcision perfects what is defective congenitally. This gave the possibility for everyone to raise an objection and to say: How can natural things be defective so that they need to be perfected from outside, all the more because we know how useful the foreskin is for the member? In fact this commandment has not been prescribed with a view to perfecting what is defective congenitally, but to perfecting what is defective morally. The bodily pain caused to that member is the real purpose of circumcision. None of the activities necessary for the preservation of the individual is harmed thereby, nor is procreation rendered impossible, but violent concupiscence and lust that goes beyond what is needed are diminished. The fact that circumcision weakens the faculty of sexual excitement and sometimes perhaps diminishes the pleasure is indubitable. For if at birth this member has been made to bleed and has had its covering taken away from it, it must indubitably be weakened. The sages, may their memory be blessed, have explicitly stated: "It is hard for a woman with whom an uncircumcised man has had sexual intercourse to separate from him." In my opinion this is the strongest of the reasons for circumcision. Moses ben Maimon, Guide of the perplexed, Part III, Chapter 49 Maimonides (The Rambam) (1135-1204) was an important Jewish physician, philosopher and theologian. http://www.circumstitions.com/Pleasure.html#maimonides A parent can attempt to persuade his child to belong to a certain religion, but no parent has a right to mutilate his sons penis as required by that religion.

As I see it, the problem with the discussion about this case is that it has the supporters and the opponents of circumcision at each other's throats about circumcision itself. I don't believe that this is the case at issue before the Oregon Supreme Court. The case to be decided there is whether a boy who is almost 13 should be circumcised for non-medical reasons when the boy's mother opposes the procedure and the boy is too young to decide the issue for himself. People have been debating about circumcision for more than 2000 years, so there is no chance that this debate will come to an end at any time soon. However, the case of the boy in this case could be solved with a bit of common sense. Myself, I believe the best solution would be to order a delay to the circumcision until the boy reaches 18. Then he can decide the issue for himself.

REPORT: Disorganized and Organized PERSONALITY TYPOLOGY: ((1)) One personality typology is: (a) DISORGANIZED killers are often anal explosive personalities. (b) ORGANIZED killers often phallic with anal retentive personalities. There are 4 types of these Organized killers: Visionary, Mission-Oriented, Hedonistic, and Power/Control. ((2)) (a) VISIONARY: Only killer with biogenic etiology. Etiology may be from auditory or visual delusional hallucinations. They are psycho