Testing 1, 2, 3

Does testing actually reduce the time a student spends gaining an education? The answer will surprise you.

(SALEM, Ore.) - In a recent opinion piece by Neal Feldman, he makes numerous suggestions which he believes will turn around education. Among these is the suggestion:

Do away with 'multiple guess' exams returning to essay responses and blank answer spots where work is shown how they arrived at their answers. Yes, this makes grading more time consuming but the multiple guess model often shows only a student's ability to guess rather than accurately guaging [sic] their solid knowledge of the topic.

Neal provides a good opening for discussion about testing. Before we get too deeply into the issue, it would be helpful to define some terminology. While the terms assessment and evaluation are sometimes used interchangeably, it's clarifying to define them in the following way.

Assessment is what teachers do to guide their instruction. Assessments are seat-work, home-work, quizzes, tests, class participation, body language--anything which gives the teacher feedback as to whether or not the student is learning and how much they are learning. Teachers reflect daily on these assessments and modify their plans for the next day based on the results. If the teacher is teaching students how to multiply fractions, for example, the teacher either re-teaches key concepts the next day or moves on to the next lesson depending on these assessments.

Evaluation is defined as giving value to a body of work of a student. It is important also to understand that evaluations are specifically designed with a target audience in mind. SAT test scores, for example, are primarily for college entrance boards and are expressed in values which colleges best understand. While parents may look at SAT scores, they don’t give them the weight of their students’ report cards. Evaluations don't guide current instruction because evaluations are determined after the course work is complete. They are a summation valued with a measure shared and understood by the target audience.

Like Neal, educators are troubled by what’s called snapshot evaluations. Neal is right when he says multiple choice tests don't accurately measure what students know (although they are useful in the daily assessments teacher do to guide their instruction). Evaluation is most accurate when it is derived from a large and varied body of evidence. Educators believe that a range of products created during student learning will provide the most accurate measure. This range might include multiple choice and essay writing, but might also include performance-based projects. In woodshop for example, you wouldn't take an essay test to demonstrate your learning--you'd make a bookcase. The same concept can be applied to other subjects as well. The George Lucas Education Foundation edutopia.org is a great resource for thinking on project-based learning.

Another method of determining what students know is to interview them. This gives the teacher an opportunity to ask students probing and open-ended questions. For a variety of reasons students often know more than they demonstrate on written tests. They may misinterpret the question. They may suffer from test anxiety. They may talk themselves out of the right answer. They may be more verbal in expressing their ideas. They may find the test boring. A skillful interviewer can ask questions in a way which teases out what the student knows without giving away the answer. This is time-consuming and is usually reserved for students who are pursuing degrees such as doctors, lawyers, and Ph.D.‘s.

An important question to ask is who is the target audience for state testing? Is it parents? Perhaps. State test scores are reported to parents, but I don't believe they are the sole audience. If that were so then school report cards wouldn't be reported in newspapers. Another audience for state test scores is the tax-payers. It is to demonstrate that they are getting value for their investment. That's what I think is meant when politicians demand accountability. But measuring accountability with test scores is tricky.

Criterion referenced testing is testing which creates a fixed goal which students must achieve to pass. It does not compare students to other students. It doesn’t get more difficult if students all do well.

Norm-referenced testing is testing which is designed so that only a certain percentage of students will pass it. Sometimes you'll hear about a test being "graded on a curve." So many students will get an A, so many students will fail and so on. The results often resemble a bell-curve.

A criterion test can be given and if every student achieves the benchmarks, then every student passes. Teachers and the public have been told that state-testing is criterion-based. If all students achieve the benchmark, all students will pass. But when a large number of students do pass, we are then told, "the tests are too easy" and next year's tests are more difficult. The harder the students work, the harder the tests become.

Although it went largely unnoticed in the press, the Department of Education in Oregon last school year entered into this game of Catch-22.

Elementary schools in the state of Oregon in the past have done reasonably well on state tests. Secondary schools tests score were not so good. It was argued that since you couldn't predict the kinds of scores at the secondary level by looking at the elementary that either the elementary school tests were too easy or the secondary were too hard or both. Put another way, they claimed the percent of students who passed the tests at the elementary and secondary should be about the same and they weren’t the same. To correct the discrepancy the Depart of Education raised the passing scores in elementary about 3 points and lowered the passing score for secondary by about 3 points. Needless to say elementary teachers felt they were punished for doing a good job.

What if elementary really is doing better than secondary? You’d never be able to measure it because every time the data demonstrated the difference the passing criteria gets adjusted. Might it be that high school students often work after school, are involved in sports, are going through puberty all of which might negatively influence their test scores? Might it be that the models of elementary and secondary education are different enough that there is a difference in the measured outcomes? (It is said that elementary teachers teach students and secondary teachers teach subjects.) That doesn’t mean that secondary teachers are less skillful or work less diligently that their elementary counter-parts. It just means that you can’t compare apples (secondary) with oranges (elementary).

Why test elementary students at all if their scores are handicapped to match the performance of secondary students? Just take the scores of the secondary students and post them to elementary principals. Save time and energy wasted on testing so that elementary teachers retrieve lost instruction time.

What if the reverse situation had occurred? What if elementary scores had been low and secondary educators were asked to raise their passing scores so that they were predictive with the elementary? I think you would have heard a protest from secondary teachers which would have rattled your teeth.

If state testing is going to be norm-referenced (that is by design a certain number will pass, a certain number will fail) then the public needs to understand that. If testing is going to be criterion-referenced, tests must not be made more difficult when students perform well.

Testing is not instruction. Repeat that three times and commit it to memory. Testing and especially test-preparation takes time away from class instruction. As a teacher I cringe to see how many days of instruction have been erased by high-stakes testing. There is nothing about the act of testing which improves a student's education if by education we mean the preparation of students to be citizen-workers who can solve problems, make good decisions and work collaboratively with others. It's an important distinction to make.

I’d like to finish with a quote from a New York Times article, "Free to Be," (1/12/03) ---Begin quote--- "Japanese children have famously scored at the top in international contests for math and sciences. But in a 1996 survey of scientific literacy by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, an international organization for developed economies, Japanese adults placed second from the bottom among the 14 most advanced countries." (Danish adults scored highest, with the United States sixth.)

"I am hypothesizing that Japanese kids do well on tests when they are forced to study," says Mr. Sumitani of Learnnet. "But they did not learn out of curiosity and did not go through a self-motivated process of why they are learning and how studying will serve them." ---End quote--- Sixth place doesn't give us bragging rights, but clearly the United States is doing something better than Japan.

Glen L. Bledsoe is a 4th grade teacher currently working for the Molalla River School District. He previously taught in the Salem-Keizer School District. Glen also has taught in the School of Education at Willamette University and is adjunct faculty at the University of Oregon. He is deeply interested in the uses and impact of technology in education. For two and a half years Glen wrote a series of monthly essays about the issues of technology and education for the National Education Association at NEA.org. Glen has also written for Today's OEA and NEA Today magazines, among others. He and his wife Karen are the authors of over seventeen books. Glen is better known as Leonardo to readers of Salem-news.com’s weekly comic, Nota Bene.

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Jefferson January 14, 2008 12:50 pm (Pacific time)

Glen you continue you to make the point that literally millions of us realize, i.e., public education has taken a nosedive, and unions have essentially promulgated this sad situation. Glen I taught my first class in the early 60's, then went on to a more challenging career, but I have always been involved in the teaching profession. Several of my children (as well as other family members) are currently teaching in Oregon and the NW. One is in the union, and will be leaving for a private school next fall. She has frequently brought associates of hers by for some very frank assessment talks and these talks always end up about discussing their distaste for the different unions that impact them. Suffice, the quality of teachers has been dropping for quite some time now, and I think you know why Glen?! I simply see you as grossly misinformed or you enjoy carrying water for the union thugs. When you point out the difficulty of teaching students who come to school with a wide array of problems, well guess what, that's been a fact of life since long before you were born. How come Oregon is almost dead last in the below national appraisal? Other states have far worse socio-economic conditions that impact their students/schools? You strike me as someone who probably does not know much about the history of Oregon public education. At one time my state was in the top three, now we're number 49 in the nation. Schools will always have their high achievers, regardless of the educational environment, but the majority of our public school students simply are not getting the quality education that we are paying for. It's simply a matter of providing a good rigorous assessment of teacher's and gauge their fitness to teach...what's the problem with that Glen? Why would that bother any rational person. Well people, this is the reason: For years now the colleges/universities have been putting out utterly inferior teachers. Think of the auto industry and what has happened there. As the unions demanded more costly benefits coupled with more liberal based increases in taxes/fees, then corners got cut, impacting product quality, and now our world leading auto industry is sinking fast. The same thing is happening in public education, but with far more serious consequences. The unions served a purpose at one time, now they represent a clear and present danger. Those who support these parasites can only call us neocons or point out our grammatical errors, that's all they can do...think about it. P.S. Without nationally based tests, how do you compare? How do you remedy those failing districts? We live in a global economy, of course we need to assure that all our students have a fair chance to succeed by seeing that they are properly assessed. Excuse making for not taking standardized tests comes from those who have something to hide, e.g., poor quality, union dues paying teachers need to be protected from exposure!

Glen January 14, 2008 7:22 am (Pacific time)

"Currently there is a national database that lists over 25,000 teachers that have been punished for a wide array of reasons, we need to not only educate our children but also protect them from unbalanced teachers that no doubt exist in large numbers!" Besides being weasel words, statements of this kind reveal you as a foaming-at-the-mouth paranoid, Jefferson. Honestly, you sound like you're ready to crack. Yes, there are rare teachers who violate society's rules just as there are people in other occupations who violate society's rules. When they are discovered, they are punished--as is just. No need to start a witch hunt. Teachers are professionals who are dedicated public servants. You don't have to believe that, but it's a fact. They work tirelessly to build a better future for their students. Many students that I've taught have horrible home lives (one student watched her mother raped twice), and the best part of their is day when they come to school. They are fed, taught, and respected. As far as Oregon's Education Week rating goes, the criteria of the measurement needs to be looked at category by category (as is the case with all research), but I am not in disagreement that Oregon has a lot of work to do. Maybe this report will provide the beginning. The public has not been strong in supporting schools. (In the 8 years I worked in Keizer, the people did not vote to support one bond measure for schools.) In spite of the money that _is_ spent, services are not distributed in a manner which serves all students in all districts equally. None of Oregon's problems can be laid at the feet of unions, however. New York, which is one of the highest scoring states in Education Week, has a strong teachers' union (NYSUT) which works hard with administrators to create the best learning system they can.

Jefferson January 13, 2008 6:24 pm (Pacific time)

Glen why are you not discussing the below 1/10/08 "NATIONAL EDUCATION PERFORMANCE" report?! People please note that my criticism (see below posts) of Oregon public education coupled with the national/local union stranglehold over this state's educational process was posted before the below national report (if you need a link just ask!). Oh, one more thing, for some reason Glen appeared to be avoiding the issue of the incredibly poor educational results here in Oregon (over decades!) by shifting that topic, for whatever reason, by writing that UTAH had the highest suicide rate in the nation. Why he brought this up seems rather "FELDMANIAN", i.e. irrelevant and nonsensical. For your information, Utah's suicide rate is less than Oregon's rate, in fact approximately 8 other states are higher. Suffice the below report places Oregon at the bottom in national educational performance, only one state is worse, Idaho. Washington DC (large city school district) is at the very bottom for a large city, and in below posts I pointed out via comparative analysis that money (DC get's the highest funding per student and has the lowest teacher-student ratio in an urban environment) just doesn't seem to ameliorate poor performance (lots and lots of evidence!). The below report is very timely people...also besides having yearly evaluations of individual teachers' performance we should make sure that these evaluations also includes reviewing the teacher's emotional and mental stability. Currently there is a national database that lists over 25,000 teachers that have been punished for a wide array of reasons, we need to not only educate our children but also protect them from unbalanced teachers that no doubt exist in large numbers! Maybe you have observed some lately in your day to day life? "Education - Oregon gets a D-plus in Education Week's performance evaluation Thursday, January 10, 2008 An annual state-by-state report card on public schools issued Tuesday by the national education newspaper Education Week ranks Oregon as having the second-worst education policy and performance in the nation. A major reason Oregon got an overall grade of D-plus, worse than every other state except Idaho: The state does little to ensure teachers are qualified when they start teaching and, after that, does almost nothing to make sure they get the monitoring and on-the-job training they need to get better, the report says. Unlike most states, Oregon has no systematic way to evaluate teacher performance, mentor new teachers, reward teachers for strong performance or ensure they get training that helps them do better, it says. Oregon is the only state that the report gives an "F" for its "efforts to improve teaching." "

Glen January 12, 2008 9:40 am (Pacific time)

Jefferson: Your anti-union rhetoric is full of non-sequiturs. The US Department of Ed statistics you show don't have anything to do with unions. For example, "teacher satisfaction." Where does it state that unionized teachers are less satisfied than non-unionized teachers _because they belong to a union_? I would strongly suggest that public school teacher satisfaction (or dissatisfaction) is a measure of kids coming to school who are disrespectful, whose parents are on meth, or the lack of adequate support from tax-payers, or the abysmal quality of the building they teach in, or lack of text books or (to use Neal's term) helicopter parents. Using your logic I can say since Utah has the highest suicide rate in the nation that non-unions teachers cause students to commit suicide. That makes no more sense than the statements you've been making. You resort to weasel words again: "Note: Many of the private school administrators and teachers were in the public school system, suffice once they got away from union control the learning and teaching environment was much improved." Please go to Wikipedia and do a search on "weasel words" before you post again. "Many of the private school..." is so vague that it has no validity. I can make "many people say/think/believe" statements all day long and not have proved a thing.

Glen January 12, 2008 9:10 am (Pacific time)

GodsofChaos: "This is a good plan but I think the cost would be quite large. So this isn't a plan that you just jump in(tax payers would kill it). I think a gradual increase of classes with teachers would go over better with tax payers(I.E. voters) ." I'm no expert in finance, but tax-payers may not have to pay (much) more to have smaller class sizes. When I taught 5th grade during the 90's in Salem-Keizer, my class sizes ran from about 32 - 35 students. Way too many kids. Since I've been working in Molalla River Schools, class size is much smaller. Usually between 24 - 26. The two different school districts spend their money differently. Salem-Keizer had larger classes, but we had a PE teacher. Molalla River has smaller classes, but no PE teacher. Salem-Keizer appears to me to be very top heavy with administrators. How many administrators do you need for a district the size of 24J? Do they, for example, all have to have a monthly line item traveling expense in the budget? I don't know, but I can't help recalling the old saying about tendency of bureaucracies for self-preservation. There's the issue of how money is distributed from the state as well. Measure 5 from the early 90's created a formula (so much money per student), but it hasn't evened things out. Smaller districts still can't do the same job as larger districts because of economy of scale. Finally I think that ESDs consume a huge amount of resources and supply very little in return for schools. If all the ESDs in the state were to disappear tomorrow, I doubt any teacher would notice the difference. Yet the ESDs sap many education dollars from schools.

Godsofchaos January 11, 2008 7:00 am (Pacific time)

"In a recent opinion piece by Neal Feldman, he makes numerous suggestions which he believes will turn around education."Glen L. Bledsoe All which I felt were hopelessly doomed. "Do away with 'multiple guess' exams returning to essay responses and blank answer spots where work is shown how they arrived at their answers."Neal Feldman The problem with as stated by Glen L. Bledsoe is test are nothing more than memorization. So all this would do is change the problem and not the problem itself. I find Glen L. Bledsoe's suggestion of teachers working with the student the better solution. The only problem I can foresee is that smaller class are needed for a plan of this nature."This gives the teacher an opportunity to ask students probing and open-ended questions. a variety of reasons students often know more than they demonstrate on written tests." Small classes means that the teacher gets to better know the student and his or hers weaknesses. This is a good plan but I think the cost would be quite large. So this isn't a plan that you just jump in(tax payers would kill it). I think a gradual increase of classes with teachers would go over better with tax payers(I.E. voters) .

Jefferson January 10, 2008 12:31 pm (Pacific time)

Glen and others: As per the U.S. Department of Education, School of Staffing Survey: Teacher Satisfaction (Public-53.7%; Private-66.4%). Staff Cooperation (Public-33%; Private-56%). Colleagues Share Schools Mission (Public-33%;Private-60%). Administration is Supportive )Public-41%; Private-60%). It's my contention that as soon as the school unions are dissolved the above comparisons will close and our students will be in a more healthy learning environment. Note: Many of the private school administrators and teachers were in the public school system, suffice once they got away from union control the learning and teaching environment was much improved. There are certainly exceptions, but the overall evidence is that if you have higher teacher satisfaction their students will benefit. Think about it!

Jefferson January 10, 2008 11:36 am (Pacific time)

Glen thanks for your input. Why are you comparing Darfur with "any" American school? It makes no sense! The purpose of education is to allow our citizens to become functionally independent, and in this growing world economy the needed skill sets have become even more important (and complicated), to become, and maintain a competitive edge. This is simply not being accomplished as the international test comparisons clearly acknowledge...but maybe we could surpass Darfur? Have you seen their test results Glen? Regarding my below 6:18 post you referenced, the stories I related have been in the news (the Stayton fingerprint story was in the Statesman Journal recently!) , but I have noticed the larger MSM organizations appear to minimize reporting on these types of outlandish and far too common behaviors by various school districts and their union masters. I do not wonder why they censor these stories, not one bit!. Are you familiar with the nationwide database that includes approximately 24,500 teachers that have been punished for a wide variety of offenses? This list is growing! ? I did cherry-pick Washington DC for my below comparison (which I clearly stated!), and I could have compared them with any other state to make my point that "more money" is not always the answer in improving the learning environment. Are you familiar with some rural area's where the student's live in extreme poverty, but still manage to score way above those in [various] higher socio-economic areas? The point Glen, by doing comparative research in this area you "may discover" why some things work and see if it may be applied to an area that may profit from it's application. As far as other union members feeling threatened if they protest against their particular local, well Glen, there are reams of historical evidence that this has happened and is happening currently. Note: You see the major bucks (including judge shopping) unions spend anytime someone attempts to allow the voter's to vote on union decertification or regulate dues, etc.? Certainly it's obvious that I am no fan of unions, especially when they exert control over are most vulnerable, and they have hurt our student's (and our economy!) for generations. The international comparisons certainly supports that observation. People are suppose to be the masters over government, suffice there is a serious conflict of interest when the government becomes the chief educator. I am sure you know that a primary platform in Marx's Communist Manifesto is public education, right? Providing excuses is a childish way to deny responsibility for failure, finding solutions is what we need to strive for. As I wrote previously I know many teachers in your district that have no use for the NEA or the local unions. Many have their children (and grandchildren) in private schools because they want their children to have the best possible chance in life. I have always noticed how liberals frequently say what the "nation" (and village) can accomplish, but they usually ignore (or give meaningless lip service) what the individaul can accomplish, as the individual. Read the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights Glen...nothing in there about unions and government taking control over the individual...just the opposite. I have been in the learning environment for a long time and I can compare what has happened over time. Public education use to work until the mid 60's , then it started to slowly decline. Lowering expectations and standards has been increasing at an alarming rate. In my opinion, unions have got to be dissolved and there are millions who agree, and we will dissolve them Glen. For our kids! It will be a much improved learning environment when teacher's do not have to worry about union leadership and teachers are tested/evaluated on a yearly level. This will allow us to weed out ineffective teachers, especially those that never should have been certified. I imagine you may know some of the latter, if not, many others do!

Glen January 9, 2008 10:43 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson, your comments of 6:18 below are paranoid. We have only your word for them, and even if they were true they don't represent the practices of teachers. I don't mind debating you, but if you're going to sink to that kind of trashy fear-mongoring, it's time to tune you out, buddy. Troll filter up.

Glen January 9, 2008 8:46 pm (Pacific time)

You couldn't possibly be cherry-picking could you, Jefferson? Comparing Washington DC with Utah? Would you be willing to compare schools from Seattle to the schools in Darfur? It makes as much sense as your suggestion. I'll bet the teachers in Darfur aren't NEA members, and I bet Seattle's schools (taught by teachers of the Washington Education Association) blow Darfur's scores right out of the water. Not a fair comparison, right? To compare two schools they have to be demographically similar. Comparable size, socioeconomic status (usually measured by the number of free and reduced lunches), cultural background, unemployment rate, crime rate. So how does it work in your world? A teacher graduates from university and if they are good teachers they go to Utah and if they are bad teachers to go to a state with teacher unions? I have an idea. Let's put the teachers of Utah in the ghettos of Washington DC and take a look at test scores after a year -- if they make it that long. Your conclusions are cases of correlation does not imply causality. For someone who has repeatedly stressed the authority of research you seem to make bold statements with nothing to back them up. "Many teacher's all over America are worried about what would happen to their careers, etc. if they protest against the unions." How could you possibly know that? What is the basis for your statement? Show me the research. Your statements are weasel words (it's a real term). "More and more kids are getting home-schooled and private school enrollment is up." How nice. So is pubic school enrollment. Salem-Keizer School District can't build schools fast enough. Could it be that we have a growing population? The problem is that recruiting teachers to work in urban schools has not been successful. See "Combat pay won't work for attracting teachers to poor schools." San Francisco Chronicle -1/4/08. Google it. The whole article is worth reading, but here's a quote: "But because teaching and learning conditions in high-poverty schools are so uniformly appalling teachers understandably opt for suburban schools." And here's another quote regarding all those over-paid teachers who you believe are draining the system: "A study by the Texas Schools Project from 1993 to 1996 confirmed long standing anecdotal evidence. It concluded that working conditions and student characteristics matter far more than salary in attracting and keeping teachers." Educations problems are not NEA or low standards. Educations problems are poverty, drugs and crime. There are others: over-crowded schools, lack of respect for the profession, but poverty is the big one.

Jefferson January 9, 2008 6:18 pm (Pacific time)

People did you know that in Seattle a teacher last November taught her students about her private views on Thanksgiving calling it "The 11 deadly Myths of Thanksgiving?" Needless to say it was not accurate nor appropriate to do this to young children (a captive audience). Did the school unions protect this teacher from this horrible behavior? Should the parents have been pre-warned so they could stop their children from being exposed to this outrage?. Do you know that in Maine, last year, a school district decided to provide birth control pills to "11 year olds" without parental knowledge, much less approval? Last year in Stayton Oregon, the school district decided to fingerprint (electronically) their students without initial parent permission. These kinds of stories about school abuses (many far worse) are becoming more and more commonplace in our public school system. You don't find many of these stories being reported in the MSM, nor do you hear the school unions trying to stop this ongoing abuse. By the way people, a public school teacher's 1st Amendment rights does not allow them to intentionally lie or mislead their students (a captive audience!). When teacher's abuse their students with knowingly false information they should be terminated and prosecuted if appropriate. State legislatures need to start writing more laws to protect our children from those teachers who intentionally cause harm via propaganda or any type of falsehoods that they use to inculcate our children. This should not only apply to K-12 instructors, but also to public colleges and universities. Too many of these teachers/instructors are using our students for propaganda purposes.

Jefferson January 9, 2008 6:06 pm (Pacific time)

I heard the below viewpoint recently: "Our children are still falling behind in the public school system, particularly in subjects crucial to success in the global economy in which we live. There is absolutely NO constitutional mandate for a Department of Education; no recognition of a right to literacy (regardless of degree); nothing... Teachers’ unions, today, are interested only in their own survival, just like other labor unions in the US (look what they have done to the auto and manufacturing industries). They have no vested interest in the quality of education, or the consistency of the finished product. They’ve been successful in implementing a leftist perspective on historical fact, and diluted the basics by means of ‘progressive’ approaches, which have been nothing more than failed experiments in child learning philosophies (for example 70% of urban 4th graders can't pass a dumb-downed reading test, because the teacher's in many of these failed area's concentrate on issues like self-esteem over learning), and the sad impact has been on "SEVERAL GENERATIONS" (going back to LBJ) of young people. Of course, we’ve also witnessed the diminution of the importance of parents in this effort, as well. The ongoing expansion of the socialist, nanny state has made great strides toward eliminating the parents as the prime directors in raising their offspring. ‘Tis a sad and sorry state at which we’ve arrived." Yeah, dissolve the unions immediately!

Jefferson January 9, 2008 5:59 pm (Pacific time)

The below data (D.C. v.s. Utah) is self-explanatory for people who can think clearly. Millions and millions of Americans (and the numbers are growing) are fed up with the failing public school system, so I am in some very fine company! Many active public school teachers here in Oregon [and the Salem-Keizer district] are in agreement that the NEA and their offshoot unions must go. The unions in this country served a valuable service at one time, but now all they bring is trouble. How many people are losing their homes because of the writer's strike, or for that matter almost any strike? The union leaders aren't! Greed coupled with incompetence! The data is there for everyone to see. People the far left is simply doing their best to hide the truth from you, pay attention to what they say and what reality is!

Henry Ruark January 9, 2008 2:47 pm (Pacific time)

Preliminary analysis of N-N's latest shows so many "competing variables" (read distorted statements) that one must conclude purpose is to confuse, not communicate. OR, one might write, "make obscure or unclear": i.e. to "obfuscate". SO much is built simply on statement then used to support personal opinion or feeling that it becomes laughable --if not so malign and determinedly misleading. "See with own eyes" the revealing article "New Right Wing Smear Machine" by Christopher Hayes, in NATION, Nov. 12, 07. Where has N-N ever been published ?

Neal Feldman January 9, 2008 2:18 pm (Pacific time)

Glen - Yes I read what you post. I was waiting for you to clearly make the statement. Thank you for doing so. Ah well...

Neal Feldman January 9, 2008 2:17 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson - you accuse others of having nothing of substance while you, cowardly wisp of vapor that you are, have nothing you have ever substantiated. News for you... your simply making claims does not substantiate anything but your ability to write fantasies based upon your delusions. Your comparisons cannot even differentiate between apples and oranges. And you wonder, bewildered, about how anyone could possibly see a neocon shill like yourself as a prancing buffoon. The fact that you have to wonder proves my point. Ah well...

Jefferson January 9, 2008 12:01 pm (Pacific time)

Glen your stories about individual acts of kindness/compassion are great (my family, associates and many friends are always involved in helping those in our community, and we do so privately-our choice), but have nothing to do with what I mentioned below regarding the declining performance of public education under the leadership of different (politically biased) unions. In a below post I mentioned comparing DC with Utah. There are plenty of stats and tables out there that provide an abundant amount of information about all states and their schools. I like to use DC for many different types of comparisons, e.g. , crime stats and gun control. The teacher's union in DC a number of years ago opined that if they had the financial resources they would get their students to perform at a competitive level. The following is what the current "reality" is: DC teacher-student ratio is "14" to 1; Utah "23" to 1; DC average teacher salary is approx. $60,000; Utah is approx. $40,000. Cost per pupil in DC is over $13,000 per year; Utah approx. $5,000. DC 8th grade reading scores 45; Utah 73. DC avg. 8th grade math score 31; Utah 71. DC graduation rate is 51%; Utah graduation rate 82%. Note: Graduation rates mean nothing unless you have a national test to measure performance, otherwise you have a lot of HS grads who cannot read or write, which is not that uncommon. We also need to have constantly updated (nationally normed) yearly measures on all teacher's. Many teachers, even those with graduate degrees have simply gotten their degrees by showing up for class. All grad degrees should require a master's thesis or Field Study (library archived) via APA format (or some other acceptable professional academic format). Heck so many of these MAT degree holders (not all) in the last 20 years are simply poorly trained and they do not improve with time, they just don't! Suffice the above data, even when you incorporate the consumer price index, pretty well acknowledges that money will not fix DC's problems ( like in most area's), and that was my point below Glen, find out what is working and not working in different school districts, to observe as many causal variables as possible. More and more money will not stop the decline of public education (union leadership always wants more money, but look how much of the taxpayer's money is spent on their twisted political agenda?! Note: A significant percentage of teacher's do not want to belong to the union and they sure don't want their union dues to go support political issues/people they find anathema to their views). Note: Many teacher's all over America are worried about what would happen to their careers, etc. if they protest against the unions. This sound familiar? Union thugs and bashing those against them! A lot of historical union violence! Still this additional money does not help this failing public educational system (who constantly lower standards to obfuscate their failures!), it is just delaying the eventuality of the total collapse of public education. Dissolving the unions is the only rational way to proceed, so the taxpayer's money is under the control of non-political leadership, some neutral body that follows fudiciary principles. A tax revolt is already happening and it will snowball. More and more kids are getting home-schooled and private school enrollment is up. At the very least the taxpayer who keep their kids out of this failing system should get a like amount refund to offset their costs for alternative schools/ programs. In essence, most teachers do well, a combination of poor state leadership (many under union influence/ Hey the current governor almost gave us a violent child rapist to run the state school board/ Goldschmidt), various school unions and some really bad local school boards, e.g. , many have individuals not unlike feldman who voice their opinions which are based on nothing of substance, nor educated experience, just fatuous meaningless howling. This is, unfortunately, so common as is the political leftist's out there who make attacks on those who want to expose them and those of their pathetic ilk. It is a failing system, that's reality!

Henry Ruark January 9, 2008 11:14 am (Pacific time)

Glen, Neal et al: Re "testing" generally, the distorted/perverted emphasis on it as threat-and-motivation in NCLB has done great damage to professional applications, from all indications in ongoing research here. "Distortion" may have come about via U.S.OEd emphasis, via professional choice of "leaders" there; "perversion" here, as in all other Bush-actions, cometh by full reliance on crony capitalism, handing heavyduty nofee and other special/format contracts to friends, buddies, and other close associates. Total consequences of this blunderous use of testing will not appear for at least a generation, at extreme added costs beyond dollars lost by inevitable corruption of real role of testing, badly needed for purposes made clearer by this dialog.

Glen January 9, 2008 10:36 am (Pacific time)

Neal, you're a great guy, but have you read what I've been writing about multiple choice tests? I don't know how I can be more clear on this. I DON'T LIKE THEM EITHER. If they have any value at all it _might_ be in secondary education for a quiz (assessment) to see if students are getting a concept. I personally don't give multiple choice tests, and I can't think of any other elementary teacher who does either. It has no place in evaluation for all the reasons you have repeatedly stated. It is unfortunate the the Oregon Department of Education has chosen multiple choice questions to evaluate student learning. I'd like to blame NCLB for this, but there's a tradition of multiple choice tests which predates Bush--the (fill in the bubble) Iowa Tests I took as a kid in Indiana, for example. Down with them, I say! Up with a broad palette of work for evaluations, the choice of teachers.

Neal Feldman January 9, 2008 7:27 am (Pacific time)

Henry Ruark - not to make a liar out of you or anything but you do in fact have my email... everyone does as t is linked on the staff page along with my personal website. And I do recall an email or two from you a few months ago pretty much welcoming me to the site but you are correct in your statement that we have not collaborated on anythig and that we have never met face to face (as you were not at the last staff meeting). I do look forward to someday meeting you in person however. Accuracy in truth is everything. LOL Ah well...

Neal Feldman January 9, 2008 7:22 am (Pacific time)

Glen - You will find Jefferson to be a dissembling ignorant buffoon who makes all manner of claims of expertise that his posts clearly prove are false. (or if they once were true senility has apparently set in). He rants and raves the neocon extremist line and as you noted yourself loves to have his side take credit for all that is good yet eschews responsibility for the bad... all the while doing the opposite regarding his political enemies... they are only responsible for the bad never the good no matter what the facts show. He is just an intellectually dishonest and cowardly net.troll. This has been proven pretty conclusively. Ah well...

Neal Feldman January 9, 2008 7:12 am (Pacific time)

Glen - My personal experience is not only my own in school but also more recently raising my children through the school system. And yes a broad range should be tested however as I said before I find multiple guess type tests worse than useless for the reasons already stated. Neither you nor anyone else has proven to me that we need multiple guess type tests or that they are the best type to have proliferate. Ah well...

Henry Ruark January 9, 2008 6:08 am (Pacific time)

To all: For the public (and legal) record here-and-now: I have never met either Neal or Glen, do not have their e-mail addresses, have never exchanged a single note with either. We do NOT "collaborate" here or elsewhere via staff session for S-N, either. BUT I am proud to be part of their effort to build clear understandings of major public issues, here-and-now, via their clear, honest, sometimes "intense" (!) dialog right out there on the public record for what they said --and WHY. What's more, we all sign our own stuff, too ! We do NOT "hide behind the tree", as some do, claiming fear for others via danger of retaliation --for what ? Surely NOT words-here, no matter which ones,even "names" ordinarily reserved for use only to express contempt and to produce demeaning differentation cloaked as self-defense when clearly used as attack-on-channel. If hide-name used as cover for sorry deeds-done in other roles, it is only continuous contempt for channel and its participants to do so, now, here. "Character" cannot be discounted in any Comment; and for that one needs to know from whence cometh the Comment-eer, by basic ID as for conversation where you know your person --OR surely should, prior to exchange of innermost, passionate, rational and reasonable sharing-statements.

Henry Ruark January 9, 2008 5:23 am (Pacific time)

To all: Dialog here serves solid purpose when those with honest experience lay it on the line with those seeking to subvert realities for their own private (and always selfish) purposes. Glen speaketh the truth from what he knows firsthand here, as any number of other leading teachers can confirm. Every point he makes here so well supports and strengthens the role of those who teach and KNOW vs those who subvert, seduce, and sabotage when and if they can any advance that threatens their ultimate goal of return to fascistic dominance, then to feudalism, from which their so-called "principles" come so clearly.

Glen January 8, 2008 8:06 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that the NEA is only responsible for low reading scores of 4th grade urban students, but not the high reading scores in areas of higher prosperity. Why should NEA take credit only for low scores? Is NEA also responsible for urban poverty, drugs and crime? Is NEA responsible for making sure that school districts have buildings that aren't in disrepair? NEA doesn't have to power to make sure that students go to bed on time, stay away from gangs, aren't born to parents addicted to meth, aren't sexually abused, aren't burned with curling irons and cigarettes, eat three balanced meals a day, aren't exposed to a pornographic "lifestyle" at age 8, have a more stable family structure than a mother and a boyfriend-of-the-week. None of the above is hypothetical. Students at the schools where I've taught have experienced all of the above and much more. I have had students who lived in cars and smelled like gasoline when they came to school. I had a student during the 90's whose family had hidden in campgrounds for an entire year because their father swore to sacrifice his children to Satan. They lasted at our school six weeks and then continued to run. A dad of two students at our school tried to blackmail women in the community with phony nude images. When his wife found out and threatened to divorce him killed her and swore he was coming to school to kill his children. Our school was surrounded for several days by the police until the dad was found dead of a self-inflicted gun shot wound in the head. Another parent came to school to pick up her child, asked to use the teachers' restroom and was found 20 minutes later dead with a needle stuck in her thigh. I'm not talking urban schools, Jefferson. I'm talking middle class school with largely white populations. These are the real reasons there are difficulties in education. Your standards be damned. Do you think teachers check their standard-o-meter at 1:00 pm each day and say, "Oh gosh, I met the low standard today. Time to check out to the teachers' lounge." Teachers push their students as hard and as fast as they will go. We "villains" from the local union raised money for one of our students to have surgery on his ears so he could hear clearly for the first time. One of our "villain" union members offered to pay for the anesthesia by working in the doctor's office. I've seen principals pay for a student's medication out of her own pocket. Union members regularly buy food for their students to eat. Union members buy students clothes and then have to wash them for them. Union members buy students school supplies. We get kids in schools who don't even know how to eat with a spoon and fork. Don't tell me that education is a failure. How dare you criticize NEA and you can't even correctly punctuate the following line: "performance standards constantly being reduced in literally all area's from teacher's to student's." Review the rules on plurals and plural possessives.

Henry Ruark January 8, 2008 4:23 pm (Pacific time)

To all: True: "The data is there for all to review!" BUT the deathly meaningful figures relate to where the billions on billions of hard-squeezed dollars have been going, and it ain't to education, comparatively speaking, since the Reagan era where allathis began with Bush I, Cheney, Wolfowitz, et al, et al, et al.

Jefferson January 8, 2008 2:17 pm (Pacific time)

Henry/SFI, some educational research is about discovering causal vaiables and developing hypothses to promulgate improvement. You have any idea what comparative analysis is about in this area? Or do you just focus on that narrow path of mediocrity as you head towards the abyss of ignorance. You probably do not even understand the concept of Environment v.s. Genetics ? You familiar with the Twin Studies? There are thousands of tables that compare literally hundreds of different student-related variables (more are needed, with timely updates), where have you been? Wake-up, you have no idea what research is going on in this area other than what, looking up some tables constructed by the NEA? Biased propaganda! Private non-union research in this area is aimed at improving the educational process for all involved...something many in the NEA do not want because it exposes their failure at wisely using public treasury and performing their primary mission of educating the students in public education. They spend millions of taxpayer $dollars for their far left whacko failed policies while controlling wimpy elected officals...this will stop in the not too distant future. I heard that pretty soon we'll start seeing the RICCO or something similar applied to these union officals and the politicans they control for willfully misusing public funds. In the meantime, some very responsible and competent professionals are focused on improving the learning process for [all] students. When over 70% of urban 4th graders cannot pass a dumbed down reading test coupled with a rising drop-out rate...the NEA and local teacher unions have failed and need to be realigned, or simply dissolved. Comparing all school districts and observing what works and what doesn't, greatly aids the researcher...get it SFI? You belong to a different failed process, the real professionals are coming back...P.S. Sorry if I offended any of you union people out there, but all we're seeing is a failed public educational process, with performance standards constantly being reduced in literally all area's from teacher's to student's, including the lowering of standards in our colleges and universities (verifiable stats). The data is there for all to review!

Henry Ruark January 8, 2008 1:23 pm (Pacific time)

Always happens: That one-step too-far, revealing wheels set on deceptive angle. You wrote: "For example how much is spent per pupil in Washington DC v.s. how much per student in Utah (Salt Lake City)...then compare and contrast student performance.: No WAY in h... you can equate those two cities to show realistic differences in student achievements, since so many indeterminate and impossible even to quantify human, family, economic, cultural as well as basic religious differences plainly exist. Even given computer-power as large as IRS's and decade of work-time, still silly, unrealistic, patently revealing just to suggest such wondrous waste of time. But, of course, possible to make look-very-good, which is why ammo helpful for more distortion/perversion for neocon purposes, per ongoing demonstration here.

Jefferson January 8, 2008 10:12 am (Pacific time)

Glen thank you for your observations and I think it's great that you can share with your well-educated spouse. My background in Testing and Assessment Methodologies, Learning Theory, Lesson Design theory, etc. , has been an ongoing process for me, reaching back to the 1960's up to the present. I have family who have been teaching in Oregon since the 1840's and many are teaching now, but all have left the public school system. Regarding Neal's preference for essay exams (which I also prefer, when time allows), there are basic advantages, e.g. , being able to measure the student's ability to organize, relate, and communicate--behaviors that are difficult to assess via objective tests. Common shortcomings of essay tests centers around time, i.e. , a typical class period may not provide an adequate sampling of the student's subject-matter knowledge. Another drawback of essay items is their susceptibility to bluffing by verbally adept but "uninformed examinees" (many of those people out there). As you know Glen, the scoring of essays is both time cosuming and subjective, e.g. , "halo effect" and "leniency error", just to name two. Many test industry designer's that I have met suggest that when possible make the same evaluation via objective tests. If you are giving an essay exam, instruct the student to contrast and explain rather than discuss. Needless to say this is a subject matter that is a seperate discipline, both an art and a science. We could go on endlessly... My area of interest is now more of a financial nature. For example how much is spent per pupil in Washington DC v.s. how much per student in Utah (Salt Lake City)...then compare and contrast student performance.

Glen January 7, 2008 7:51 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson: Instruction is a complex subject: constructivism, KWL charts, pre and post tests. The list goes on and on. Enough to say that teachers haven't been teaching the way they did a hundred years ago as some claim. Teaching reflects on what it does and how it does it on a regular basis. It would be very nice if we could make paragraphs in these comments to organize the ideas and make the reading easier. (Research design: I rely on my wife, a Ph.D. in Science Education to guide me in understanding what a study really says.)

Glen January 7, 2008 7:45 pm (Pacific time)

• Neal, your ideas about education are naive -- not meant to be negative, but meaning "uninformed beyond your own experience." Jefferson's point is that you believe that your experience in education represents everyone's experience in education and all that there is to education. That doesn't necessarily mean that you are wrong or that I disagree with you. My high school experience wasn't something I cherish in my memory, but I don't interpolate that experience to represent EDUCATION. I've learned through continuing formal education and daily experience for nearly 18 years what education is. If you want to learn what's wrong with education don't ask an armchair critic who hasn't been in a school since Nixon was president, ask a teacher. They're in it up to their elbows every day, and they can tell you. They will also tell you it's the most important job on the planet. If you don't educate your people, your culture will crumble. • Neal: "Gauge" I was working from the text of your essay I copied when I first read it. I didn't mean to misrepresent you. We all make typos and spot them after they are published. My apologies.

Glen January 7, 2008 7:44 pm (Pacific time)

• Neal, "Well, sixth place on what criteria?" Agreed. We don't know if the data is clustered so close that the differences are insignificant. We don't know if there is a cultural bias built into the test. We don't know much about the test at all. Which is why we really can't make policy decisions on studies unless we take a look at the data ourselves. If studies were always correct they would never contradict each other. Anyone who has looked at research will find that studies do contradict each other. Finding out why two studies contradict one another can be an educational and revealing experience.

Glen January 7, 2008 7:43 pm (Pacific time)

• Neal, your comments on norm-referenced testing (grading on a curve). I think you might easily infer from reading my article that I don't believe norm-referenced tests are of any service to student evaluation. My complaint about norm-referenced tests masquerading as criterion-referenced tests speaks to this. Your observations make their point, and I don't disagree. There are many better ways of assessing and evaluating student work.

Glen January 7, 2008 7:43 pm (Pacific time)

• Neal, your question: "I see nothing regarding my suggestion of doing away with the multiple guess style of tests." You will recall that I said teachers know that only a large range of evaluations will measure student learning accurately. No single test of any kind will give an accurate picture. Especially not multiple choice, and fill-in-the-blank tests are no better. It's unfortunate that the state of Oregon relies on multiple choice tests for their state assessments. I hope you're not inferring that teachers are lazy and give multiple choice tests to make their work easy. High school teachers with 140 students take home student essays and read them on a weekly basis. Every carry 140 composition books?

Bloom's Taxonomy proposed in 1956 proposes that there is a hierarchy of student learning tasks. Lowest on the scale is knowledge--regurgitating back memorized facts: spelling words, historical dates, math facts. At the top of the taxonomy is analysis, synthesis and evaluation. To write a critique of "Huckleberry Finn," for example, is a much higher activity than filling in the blank with the name of the runaway slave. Better still would be for students to take what they learned from reading "Huckleberry Finn" and write a short story prequel/sequel. Or rewrite a segment of the story from Jim's point of view. For more information see: stedwards.edu/cte/content/category/13/27/51/#levels.

Jefferson January 7, 2008 6:25 pm (Pacific time)

Jason thanks for your input. My take on my post's are, I believe, deal with the above article and then I take issue with "insulter in chief", feldman, because he has no understanding of what's going on in this area (I have years of professional experience going back to the 1960's). It would be great if he provided us with his education and professional experience, but he has none. He simply creates a situation where uninformed people can get confused, or worse, take this individual as an informed professional source. Feldman is someone who simply should be taken to task to provide his credentials (in anything really) but he has no experience, just uninformed meaningless opinions. If he would state some research (resource list) that goes along with his statements about "testing", that would be great, but it does not exist... Jason this is a very important topical area, and it deserves to be taken seriously, not just have some rambler who has childhood issues that left him so embittered with educational professionals.

Neal Feldman January 7, 2008 4:08 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson - I've noticed in every thread you enter into with comments your comments have nothing to do with the subject matter but are just pathetic and feeble attempts at personal attacks meant to disrupt the discussion. In other words you are just a net troll. You serve no useful purpose here on any level other than to demonstrate what a waste of space you are. Of course I discuss my personal experiences. I know them very well. You want me to discuss YOUR personal experiences? How can I do that since you are such a dishonest and delusional coward such that no one knows what your personal experiences are ... you even believe your own sophistry and BS so I seriously doubt at this point if even YOU know your own actual experiences. LOL! And why should we care what the entrenched 'testing methodology folks' think? It is they who hold a large portion of the blame for our education system sucking so badly in the first place. If they had even half a clue we would not even be having this discussion because the US education system would be doing just great. But it clearly is NOT doing just great... the only 'great' it is doing is the great FAILURE. But again, Jefferson, I see you fall into your typical 'assertion of authority' critical thinking fallacy. I asked a direct question... how are multiple guess tests better than essay and fill in the blanks? I have already shown where essay and fill in the blank tests are superior and the pitfalls of multiple guess testing (just a couple flaws actually but enough) in that they give the right answer to the student and all they do is judge guessing skills not knowledge of the topic. So you can rant and rave all you like, build your straw men and practice your logical fallacies all you like. You have done nothing to answer the questions I put forth in my original article nor in my earlier reply here. You have only done exactly what I pointed out of your actions in another thread... reasonable discussion occurs until you decide to post your pathetically feeble ad hominem attacks, lies, distortions, delusions, and other neocon ignorance. And yet some complain about me not being nice enough when I point out your BS. You do not deserve to be treated nicely... jst look at your posting history. Your delusions, dishonesty and neocon nonsense deserve to be crushed like the anti-intellectual bug you are. Again the world's smallest violin plays just for you, coward. Ah well...

Neal Feldman January 7, 2008 3:45 pm (Pacific time)

I thought these comments were not for advertising... how did that cheat the SAT ad get through the filter? Ah well...

Jason January 7, 2008 12:00 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson, please play nicely. Your jab at Feldman isn't fair. Most people relate to their own experience and that is partially what the open forum is designed for.

Jefferson January 7, 2008 10:37 am (Pacific time)

Has anyone noticed that feldman simply applies his life experience, which is fine if one is simply interested in something akin to an individual survey evaluation, not the most relevant/accurate kind. There are decades of research and experience involved in test assessment methodologies coupled with applied learning theories. It is dynamic, that is the field is constantly changing, maybe someday there will be a paradigm shift whereas people of limited experience and educational background, which feldman clearly demonstrates, can grasp this discipline. In the mean time, let the trained and experienced continue unabated by the forces of ignorance. Glen have you much experience in research design? For example doing a pre-test, treatment, post-test, more treatment (if called for), then more series of post-tests over time to measure retention is one of my favorites. As you probably note, doing a series of post-tests over time will diminish the so-called "Hawthorne Effect", but if time is not on your side this method would not be helpful. I could go on and on about this subject, it's such an exciting field, but let's be realistic this site simply is not structured for getting too involved. Two of my children, years ago, starting developing educational software (they had the appropriate research/training background) and they started to specialize in specialization, i.e. , they went into the business/industrial market using computer interactive video. The computer interactive market (for kids) has really taken off since then and has greatly improved. I recall back probably when you were a grad student at Willamette, a topic of when to introduce keyboarding skills to kids was somewhat up in the air. I always felt the earlier the better, i.e. , the sooner higher cognitive development begins the better. Suffice, when one is not in a "hunt and peck" mode, they can concentrate more fully on the learning task at hand.

Neal Feldman January 7, 2008 9:47 am (Pacific time)

I see a lot of that today (and even when I was growing up) (referring to the unnamed poster here.. not eve anonymous just a single blank I guess).. school tends to be engaging in elementary school and even in Jr High/middle school. But when you get to HS there are so many other things occupying your mind, distracting you, or they are not pushing you hard enough because you have to wait for the slowest of the slow students to keep up you are bored out of your mind. They dealt with a bit of that in my HS by having 5 levels of every class. ex. Chem 25 was the midrange of second year chemistry. Chem 39 was the highest level of third tear chemistry and Chem 11 was a remedial level of firs year chemistry. The second number was only odd, no evens, so you had 1,3,5,7 and 9. 7 was considered college prep level and 9 would be TAG I guess today (talented and gifted... the well above average students). You needed permission to take other than a level 5 course... they wanted to make sure you did not bite off more than you could chew taking a 9 if you were not able to succeed there and they did not want folks coasting to easy As by taking all level 1 classes. And as you say college you choose to go to and choose the direction your education is to take... and interest in the material plus knowing you are paying for being there) has a lot to do with success. But in college there are a great many distractions too so you had best have your good study habits learned. Why don't they teach good study habits in grade school anymore with refreshers in jr high and high school? At least they do not seem to teach such. I also liked the 'pop quiz'... not the pre-announced ones they have today but a complete surprise... everyone sits down, books out, ready for the lesson and are told to put everything away there will be a 20 minute pop quiz on the recent material. No cramming, no prepared cheat sheets... you know the material you pass, you don't and you fail. No curve. I know students these days would cry to beat the band over it but there are few yardsticks as accurate in gauging current retained knowledge. Ah well...

Neal Feldman January 7, 2008 9:30 am (Pacific time)

Well sixth place on what criteria? (A nitpick you (sic)'d the quote from my article 'guaging' when it had been corrected minutes from publishing and by this time it has been what? Weeks since it was published? (at least several days) So why the outdated quote I have to wonder? But you said a lot of stuff and I see a lot of the same from teachers but I fail to see how much of it is relevant. By the nature of the beast almost all test results will follow a rough bell curve... very few totally fail very few totally succeed and the majority do average. The difficulty of the test, or standards of the teaching, only really determine where on the scale the peak is. (the grade the majority received). I've dealt with grading on a curve. Teachers who do so, in my experience, want to have a stringent and severe test but know their students are not ready for it. In these cases I feel the teacher is failing both in not adequately educating the students on the materials as well as having tests that will not accurately reflect status (other than fampant failure). If you have to curve up by say 50 points this means to me every student failed the test. So what good comes from boosting them to grades they did not earn? I was hated in my chem and physics classes in High School because I've never taken a written exam that I did not get at least a 95% on. Which of course screwed up the curve so the majority (70% or so) would get Fs. I was even offered fairly large sums of momey (at the time $250 was a large sum to a high school sophomore) to get no better than a 70 (since I knew the answers having studied and comprehended the material I could get whatever grade I wanted) but I refused suggesting they put the cash towards a tutor. I find that if the test is on the materials provided and the teacher adequately educated the students so that the really comprehended the materials, there would be no need to grade on a curve. Grading on a curve does no student a service and actually gives them a disservice as it teaches them that sub-mediocre work will get above average grades. It makes the teacher look good on paper (Gee.. Ms Simmons must be a great teacher all her kids get As) but if the students are tested without the curve it is shown the same teacher has done abysmally at their job. And, again in my experience, if a student is properly educated to comprehend all aspects of the coursework's perquisites and adequately educated on the coursework itself, there would be no need for grading on curves as all students, if they did their part of the work process, would pass, and if they did not pass under such circumstances it is due to their failure to work hard enough. (putting having fun over schoolwork for example) I have zero sympathy for those who get bad grades and do not learn because they are more interested in things other than their education. I was raised that when you are i school nothing outside school exists unless it is being covered in a class and when school let out you got to go out and play ONLY AFTER *ALL* your schoolwork was completed properly. I've seen how most students are allowed to blow off school. Give them an assignment that will take a month's hard work three months before due date with all the usual admonitions not to wait til the last minute and an unfortunately large percentage do just that... start the oroject three days before it is due (if not later) and then in come the helicopter parents dissatisfied their little darling did so poorly. Their efforts (or lack of efforts) earned them the failing grade. Browbeating the teacher should have no effect on the grade. These helicopter parents should try browbeating their kids on the subject of their education if they insist on that tactic. There it might actually help. But Glen in all of your article I see nothing regarding my suggestion of doing away with the multiple guess style of tests. You mentioned it only in the quote. My opinion on why the multiple guess test style is more popular is twofold: 1) It is easier and faster for the teacher to grade (that, to me, is likely the biggest reason) and 2) because of the flaws in it I've pointed out kids will do better than they should have done because the multiple guess format gives them the right answer... just wity 3-4 alternates. But they still give the right answer. o instead of having to pull answers from infinity they only have to pick from a group of 4-5 that they know contains the right answer. I think I've listed several reasons this method of testing should be abolished but you really did not cover it at all. So how was this piece 'in response' to my article? Just curious. As for a question in our piece, whether testing wastes time better used teaching, there is a scale where you have too little, too much and just right the amount of testing. Tests every day, yes, wasting education time. Onlt one test at the end of the course, obviously too little as the teacher will have no guage of assessment on how well the students are learning... every course is like building a castle... you need a good fioundation to build upon and you need each layer/level to be tested to make sure it is ready for the next stage. That is the right amount of testing. To make sure the class is ready to move on to the next lesson. How else do you gauge their readiness without tests. (and even in wood shop we got written tests along with the piece work stuff to demonstrate skills) Ah well...

barry morse January 7, 2008 6:25 am (Pacific time)

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January 5, 2008 9:52 pm (Pacific time)

Interesting article. I know that I was an excellent student in grade and middle schools, a poor student in high school, and excelled in college. I think that I wanted to learn until high school, where there were too many students and I was distracted. In college, I was doing what I wanted, and felt the long-term payoff for hard work.

Glen January 6, 2008 2:34 pm (Pacific time)

Thanks Hank and Jefferson for your kind words. The subject is very complex--more complex than an essay can describe. We always have to look at what our end goal is. Do we want to develop a society of good test-takers or do we wish to create citizens who have the mental tools to improve the world around them? I can take a group of kids and drill them with grammar, punctuation, correct spelling. I can teach them to organize their ideas into paragraphs, to create engaging beginnings, to finish with sound conclusions. We can explore narrative writing, expository writing, persuasive writing, imaginative writing. I can push them so that by the time the writing test is given most or maybe even all of them will pass. But if they walk away from the experience hating writing, then I have failed my mission. There are ways of demonstrating learning which push students to perform beyond what they themselves believe they are capable of. And the students love it. Perhaps that will be the subject of another essay.

Jefferson January 6, 2008 10:57 am (Pacific time)

Excellent presentation. No doubt this is a very controversial topic in the educational community and the lay public. People trained in testing and assessment methodologies (generally recent experience is more helpful) have to constantly stay on top of research that is constantly being published. Being able to understand how to professionaly critique this research is extremely important. Suffice, understanding concepts such as standardization, reliability and validity is essential.

Henry Ruark January 6, 2008 5:39 am (Pacific time)

To all: Note professional clarifying approach here via definitions to start-with. Then analysis based on more than "belly-button feeling", still too prevalent everywhere while rational analysis is immediately attacked since it always outshines on any issue. Note also how complex the issues are here; then recall how well they were distorted and perverted by neocan intent in Bush's NCLB --now notorious for precisely the disturbing and misleading consequences laid out nicely here. Again I say "Go it, friends" and open, honest, factual and non-attack channel can help us all learn what we must understand today, for full responsibilities of citizens, in what remains of our once-democratic republic.

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