'Middle Ground' on the Issue of Illegals?

INS and ICE refuse to do their jobs. What are we even paying them for? To drink coffee and eat donuts?

(SALEM, Ore.) - I keep hearing folks talk about finding 'middle ground' on the subject of illegal immigrants (not all immigrants just the illegal ones mind you... those here illegally).

Would middle ground with bank robbers mean no jail time and they get to keep most of the money? That sure sounds like a great deal for the bank robbers and it sure does 'compromise' the laws of the land to their benefit, but is it sound public policy? Wouldn't such merely increase, in all likelihood, future bank robbery?

Just as amnesty, as this so-called 'middle ground' clearly is, would cause a greater increase in the invasion of the US by illegals. Just as the amnesty of some 2 million illegals back in the 80s left us with some 30 million or so illegals here today.

When will folks realize that amnesty for criminal activity is not a valid policy option as it does not work.

Unless, of course, what one wants to 'work' is the increase in the invasion so that in 20 years we have 400 million illegals in this country and they actually outnumber those here legally. At that point the invasion is complete, the US ceases to exist, and the criminals won without firing a shot.

I am told it is 'not amnesty' because the illegals have to go to the end of the immigration line. But they get to stay here so it would seem that they in fact remain at the front of the line while those doing it the legal way are forced to remain in whatever hellhole country they are trying to leave. I am told they will have to pay fines.

We cannot even get the likes of the vehicular murderer Sean Lee Hagen, an actual US citizen (to our eternal shame) , to pay fines, what makes anyone really think we can make these illegals pay theirs? And do they have to leave if they fail to pay the fines? Of course not! So again... why would they bother to pay the fines?

And they supposedly would have to learn English. These are people who even after being here illegally for over two DECADES and dropping a couple of new generations of their progeny in our laps require a translator because they cannot speak English. What makes anyone think this toothless amnesty proposal would get them to learn English?

Not amnesty, huh? Do tell. Anyone who believes such to not be amnesty is so naive that they would surely be interested in buying the lovely oceanfront home sites for sale in Montana.

INS and ICE refuse to do their jobs. What are we even paying them for? To drink coffee and eat donuts?

Hundreds or thousands of illegals show up en masse on the state capitol steps in Salem, Oregon proudly proclaiming to reporters and anyone else who will listen that they are here illegally, that they do not care about our laws, that they consider this 'their country' and that they are 'taking it back', that they have a 'right' to be here illegally, etc etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseum with absolutely no fear whatever of the law. Why should they fear the law? There are plenty of bleeding hearts out there they can hide behind, right?

They try and play the race card but it does not stick because I do not care what race, gender, age, religion, etc the illegal is. If they are here illegally I want them gone. And I am far from alone.

Now, if these 'rallies' and the support from the naive they seem to engender are as they seem, it seems this is now a nation of anarchy and mob rule. It is as disgusting as it is disheartening.

So as we hear the food bank crying they are out of food for the poor after we see illegals loading brand new SUVs to the bursting point at the food distribution sites we do not have to wonder very much as to why the food banks are empty.

When we see class sizes pushing the 50 student mark and we see illegals popping out the 12th anchor baby of the third generation in their family it does not take advanced math to figure out why this might be.

When we go to the emergency room for a serious medical issue and have to wait 6 hours behind the line of illegals with the sniffles it should surprise no one that we have reason to want them gone... to have the laws actually enforced.

When we hear of those incidents in the welfare office where those here legally are forced to produce documents to the nth degree to qualify for benefits but see illegals who cannot even speak English just get waved through and lavished with benefits without having to produce a shred of anything it is not surprising that those of us here legally get a bit put off by the situation.

When we read about crimes committed by those here illegally we realize that if the illegal was not here we would not have suffered this crime being committed, this person victimized or even killed. Is it any wonder why we want these invaders gone and we want the invasion stopped?

I put up another article outlining very easy steps to ending the invasion and getting those here illegally to leave of their own accord. It is at: Immigration Reform, La Raza and the DREAM Act

Personally I think it is downright treasonous that any public official of our government would do anything but fully enforce the laws of the land regarding the illegals in such a way as to rid us of those here illegally now and to also discourage any others from coming here illegally in the future. Also they should take actions, either those I outlined in my article or others if they have better ideas that would be more effective, to remove the enticements and incentives that attract the illegals here.

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Brittanicus February 5, 2008 7:10 pm (Pacific time)

Anybody want to guess before Texas enacts some harsh illegal immigration laws? My guess is less than six months, once the full impact of more overcrowded schools, long hours waiting for citizens in hospital emergency rooms, the free- loaders hitting the welfare offices and other social services. Last, but not least will be the need to find more bunks in the Lone Star State prison system? I don't think any state want's to join the 8.7 billion budget meltdown in Arnolds California. Other states are carefully watching these mass exodus!

Neal Feldman February 4, 2008 3:42 pm (Pacific time)

Vic - where am I 'race bashing'. Are you claiming now that 'illegals; are a race? Ah well...

Neal Feldman February 4, 2008 3:41 pm (Pacific time)

Henry Ruark - I beg to differ. Illegals do come here 'because that is where the money is and they want some'. That is abundantly clear. What is it they wire back home by the billions? Oh yeah... MONEY! They come here for the higher wages, the higher standard of living, the social services, etc. Take away those things from them as I propose and they will go away, proving my point. Look at what happened when Oklahoma implemented only a small facet of my suggestions... the illegals fled like the place was on fire! Nothing like empirical evidence as proof is there? Yes they will disperse and flee to another state.. if we implement my suggestions one state at a time. If the suggestions are wholly implemented nationwide where in the nation will they flee to. Nowhere. They will flee outside out nation which solves our problem. They will either go back home or go somewhere else. If somewhere else we have shown that other place exactly how to get rid of them. Eventually they will be painted back into the corner of going home and trying to immigrate LEGALLY as they should have done in the first place. And there is no racism involved in my position or my solution. Race is irrelevant. I do not care where they come from and the suggestions I make do not differentiate based on race. If you point out that the vast majority of illegals are Hispanic I merely say that was their choice, it had nothing to do with me. It might show such folks have a greater disregard for the law but again it does not make me distrust, fear or hate Hispanics n general any more than any other race including my own. So again, where is evidence of racism on my part or inherent in my suggestions? Hmmm? 'damaging worldwide disgust'? I suggest you look to other nations of the world and how they handle illegals. Start with Mexico. How does Singapore handle illegals? We know how they handle litterbugs and graffiti taggers I can only imagine what they do to illegals there. Whew! Ah well...

Jefferson February 4, 2008 1:00 pm (Pacific time)

This concept of "racism" is so easily bandied about, I wonder if some of you people really take the time to see who the real racist's are out there? For some I'm sure you use it to demean those individuals who have a different opinion than you, and some I strongly believe use the term because of their recognition that they are so unhappy with the way their lives have turned out they just like to strike out. Of course there are those that may be well intentioned, but one should just look at the criminal database that the U.S. Justice Department maintains and you will clearly see that the majority of interracial violent (and most non-violent) crimes out there are done far and away by non-caucasians against caucasians. You cannot realistically dispute this database. The racist' groups/organizations out there like New Black Panthers, La Raza, Atzlan and on and on and on...far outnumber any so-called white racist organizations, especially on a racial percentage ratio. Couple that with the growing hate crimes against caucasians by non-caucasians should wake-up even the most out-of-contact with reality people...maybe not though. I read earlier someone's post about what Hitler did with the jews, but how many of you know what the jews did with the Gentiles(aka Goy...a hate term still used by jews today. This a hate word!), for those of you who got cheated in your history classes...jews killed probably over 60 million Gentiles going back to 1917 Russia up through the early 1960's. So when you talk about "racism" (and pure evil "supremacist viewpoints") and acting out on it, I submit to you that caucasian Gentiles, going back to 1917, have been the real victims. Try to disprove that statement. You cannot! P.S. Stalin admitted that at least 30 million (way below reality) were killed in Russia by a group of people that were 90% jew, so take 90% of 30 million and you get 27 million. Divide 27 million by 6 million and you get 4 and 1/2. Suffice, this part of history was part of the educational curriculum up until the early 1960's. So why do you think it's not being taught about now? Think why Hollywood has not made a movie about this largest genocide in history? Maybe similar to the same reason no movie on the USS Liberty was made. If one wants to respond to these questions, I would be interested in ones opinion, informed opinion I would hope. I suggest that most of you are so conditioned (think "SKINNER BOX"), that to even consider the above is impossible for you, now that is called "operant conditioning". Sad situation...This is what "Orwellian" is really all about: "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present control the past.!" P.S. You want links to the U.S. Justice Department, available upon request

Jefferson February 4, 2008 10:10 am (Pacific time)

I am confident that this county is heading down to a very dark place if we fail to abide by the will of the majority. In time more and more people will be negatively impacted by what is amounting to an actual invasion/colonization (actually if the media gave a full accounting of the illegal crime rate, and put it into "proportionate percentages", many open- border types would quickly alter their opinion on this matter). Many of my associates are booked up far into the future in training people/groups in self-defense tactics and strategies(pro bono). It is simply inaccurate to call someone a racist for wanting our laws enforced, for you see people of all races demanding this need for immediate enforcement (all races!)...considering that both Clinton and Obama advocate for open borders, then whomever prevails in the primary, they will do their calculus and flip-flop...too late!

Vic February 4, 2008 8:05 am (Pacific time)

I agree with Tim. I appreciate and agree with a lot of Neal's comments, but his race-bashing, like my military-bashing, gets old sometimes. Maybe he should spend a day picking fruit or moving irrigation pipes...might lose some weight in the process.

Henry Ruark February 4, 2008 7:56 am (Pacific time)

jj et al: Too many these days fall into that Cold War habit of attributing anything they dislike or don't understand to "commie/socialist" bad-word underpinnings. To do so here is an open and unwarranted smear re Tim or anyone else for which so-used, and you owe yourself better reflection in public. Incidentally, both the socialist and communist political philosophies have some parts and principles from which we can learn, and which demand consistent application these days of 21st Century understandings, rather than the fear-generated distrust with which they were, perhaps properly, welcomed in the 20th Century. Historically, we now have little choice: China, the USSR and India, among others, are self-propelled entities with which we must deal properly or face, this time,a catastrophe of atomic-bomb disaster which might well mean an end to the world, economically and environmentally, as we have known it well for many centuries now.

Henry Ruark February 4, 2008 7:01 am (Pacific time)

Friend Neal: Your choice of comparison for amnesty to bank-robber impact is self-defeating. I doubt very much if we have 30 million of them involved, nor do they operate from the same base of desperate need and motivations as do our immigrants at issue here. Bank robbers attack banks because, as one once pointed out when queried as to how he got started, "that's where the money is --and I wanted some". That's hardly the driving desperation most "illegals" feel when they overcome otherwise impossible continued difficulties to enter the U.S. You overlook, too, the immutable fact that the trends driving them thus are of large part of our own making, in our ongoing policies impacting Mexico (and other homelands) over the past century. Sometimes the only possible way-ahead is best learned from a probing consideration of history, for clues on what NOT to do as well as next-steps. Nothing can defend the way in which we've allowed our Southern border to become so porous and perilous for all concerned, in crossing and afterwards. It is enlightening to seek out what's happened on our Northern one, not stressed in nearly the same way --which might be a potent tool for understanding why we face what we do face, now. But the reality is we have 30 million or so here-now, and the fallacy is that they will, very conveniently for us, simply disperse and flee if we do this-or-that. Ain't ever gonna happen, and if they leave one state, it will undoubtedly be to turn up again in yet another, given the chaos, tumult, danger and deep desperation of any flight to where-they-came-from. Is there racism involved ? Of course; impossible to avoid, in actions imposed, no matter what denial of any one person's feelings may be. Reality demands we make some rational, reasonable changes in policies now well proven to threaten disastrous consequences for all --but self-dispersal in response to painful pressures, lawful or not, is not the answer. What IS the answer ? That's another story, perhaps to be reported soon. Self-motivated dispersal OR forced export-concentration camp style are both impossible to bring about without very heavy costs, very large added bureaucracy, deeply damaging worldwide disgust, and heavy guilt-addition for most of us. We Americans simply do not treat millions of others in such undisciplined, deeply damaging ways without that kind of guilt-addiction, now already at work among many.

jj February 4, 2008 1:07 am (Pacific time)

Tim is some kind of socialist/communist with a white guilt complex. Tim, its okay to be white and its not your fault that most of the world is a craphole. Try to relax and enjoy your life with out inflicting pain and suffering on the rest of us with your utopian fantasies and liberal dreams. if you dont want to obey the laws of this country, move or change them, those are the only options. The law says its a felony to be here without invitation. Thats why we have those "visa" thingies.

Neal Feldman February 3, 2008 10:42 pm (Pacific time)

Tim King - I have no issue with fastballs or hardballs. So long as they are legitimate. Your attacks against me with the false and unfounded accusations of racism, scapegoating or support/association with Hitler were anything but legitimate. They were base ad hominem attacks, extremely offensive and insulting. I have been nothing but factual, accurate and honest. if you cannot 'stomach' that it is not my problem. The truth is the truth regardless how popular or unpopular it might be. I realized that a long time ago. Some are slower to pick up on it. Some never manage it. And where the heck am I making people look bad because of where they are born? I could not possibly care less where they were born and I fault them for their criminal actions, not their birthplace. Are you really this incapable of dealing with the facts as they exist and the statements that are made without making fraudulent straw men out of them and attacking your straw men instead of dealing legitimately with the statements made? Should i just never say anything because you will ignore what I say and cut/paste your straw man into it anyway and attack me by applying your straw man to me? Hmmmm? I am not harsh I am honest. I guess Nicholson's line is true. Some people just can't handle the truth. The truth is not always soft, fuzzy and pleasant. I see no reason to candycoat the truth especially i see no reason to do so to protect the feelings of criminal invaders of my country. Neither you nor anyone else has ever shown me any reason to do so. And the results of the amnesty of the 80s shows what happens when we do it your way. A 1500% increase in the problem in just 25 years. You are right in that I tend not to pull punches and I speak the truth straight up. I have no issue with others doing the same. The truth. Honesty. Not flawed/fallacious critical thinking or outright dishonesty or offensive and insulting personal attacks because you apparently cannot form a coherent effective legitimately presented argument against my position. Yes, that I find fault with, as any intelligent person who values honor and honesty should. But you tell me I should not post attacks when I never have, yet you do here what you in fact admonish me against doing. Isn't there a word for that? Starts with H... ends with ypocrisy. Ah well...

Neal Feldman February 3, 2008 10:28 pm (Pacific time)

Anonymous - sorry but the numbers can be increased at need. The fact we have 20-30 million illegals here removes the need now doesn't it? You cannot have it both ways... supporting 30 million illegals here while at the same time allowing 30 million more to come in. YOU seem to be ignoring THAT. I mention the spanish thing because that is the only language being forced on us. If it were French I would feel the same. As for what I have pointed out are you claiming I am lying, that such does not exist? Really? Just because racists exist does not mean any and all who oppose illegals are racist. You will notice I meticulously use the term illegals because THAT is what i am talking about... regardless of race. This blatant attempt to try and use the race card to excuse the criminal actions of illegals based on race makes YOU the racist, not I. And the illegals are not going anywhere? They sure seem to be fleeing Oklahoma. Employers will not long be allowed to get away with hiring illegals. Illegals will be finding social services inaccessible to them. They will leave on their own and they will stop coming. That is what you refuse to face. As for insanity being the repeating of something expecting a different result we granted amnesty to two million illegals and now have 30 million illegals. So why is it anything but insanity to think granting amnesty to 30 million will not result, in 20-30 yrs, in there being 450 million illegals here? Hmmmm? Ah well...

Tim King February 3, 2008 10:03 pm (Pacific time)

Whatever Neal, your whole take on life is sort of stomach turning when it comes to this. Throw hard balls and expect faster ones back when you write such harsh assessments. You consider the Hitler analogy as offensive and that is how I see your whole devotion of energy in making people look bad over where they were born. You are harsh, over the top and completely unsympathetic and that is all you have coming back when you regard people the way you do.

Tim King February 3, 2008 9:58 pm (Pacific time)

yeah Neal, more than enough waiting in line because so pathetically few are allowed to legally immigrate here. That is something you completely choose to leave out since it removes weight from your argument, but ANY person who has been through the process can tell you about it. I think the "illegal" line is a line and a ruse for nothing but something that borders on racism. How can you not see that this is a "you against the people who speak Spanish" thing? The way you talk about people in public places in such a derogatory fashion, do you think that kind of grating description screams of fairness in character? No, it sounds like a thousand other people with similar thoughts and almost every single one who takes the time to say so is a racist. How could you possibly not understand how that instantly becomes racism if you listen to any two idiots talk about it when no Hispanic people are around (Oh man.... there are so many Mexicans around there these days) pure racism and you can describe it any way you like. Insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting a different result by some accounts, why can't people figure out that these people that bother you so much aren't going anywhere? Why as a white guy are you not more concerned about what people who look like you are thinking about and doing? Jefferson by the way is the one who mentioned the criminal aspect, I was responding to him on that part.

Neal Feldman February 3, 2008 9:48 pm (Pacific time)

Tim King - And I do not recall ever saying that the illegals were to blame for every problem in this nation. In fact I've been quite vocal in my opinion of where most of the problems come from (neocons and the Shrub administration in particular). Nor do i ever say they are the only criminals in the country. But it is undeniable that if they were not here like should be the case then every one of their crimes from murder on down would not have occurred here. I am beginning to come to the opinion that it is just as racist to EXCUSE based on race as it is to BLAME based on race. I am not blaming anything based on race... just on illegal status. You, however, seem willing to excuse almost anything based solely on the color of the offender's skin. How is THAT not racism on your part? Hmmm? And there are more than enough folks waiting in line to LEGALLY immigrate here to meet all the farmers' needs. We do not need to capitulate with criminal invaders to do so. And you are welcome for my efforts at civility but they seem to be getting a pretty shabby reward if you ask me. Ah well...

Neal Feldman February 3, 2008 9:40 pm (Pacific time)

Tim King - I went into more detail in the other thread to this ludicrous accusation of yours against me of racism or of scapegoating or of supporting Hitler. I consider the suggestion offensive and insulting and without even the least shred of factual support. Ah well...

Tim King February 3, 2008 6:22 pm (Pacific time)

Jefferson, I have no disagreement with the fact that people who immigrate here illegally commit crimes, as you I'm sure readily admit that far more criminal acts are committed by legal residents. That aside, I agree that there are many problematic, related issues but I greatly hesitate in placing the blame for our nation's myriad problems into just one area.

I find it interesting on a side note, that nobody ever seems to criticize the white Russian immigrants who have moved in large numbers to the areas of Oregon around Woodburn and are in some cases, connected to some fairly large crime in the area. Fair is fair and I just want people to realize that while there are problems related to illegal immigration, just because somebody does it "legally" does not mean they are necessarily a good fit for this country.

I don't know what the answers are, but there are many exceptions to every rule and I am just not convinced that people who are willing to go to such effort to have a menial job are a threat, more of an unavoidable necessity. And you can delve into it much further; there is the plight of the American farmer and there is the need to harvest vegetables.

So Iraq eh? I just heard from the Colonel who will pick me up in Kuwait, I am very excited about this. I didn't encounter any parasitic problems in Afghanistan but it wasn't warm enough for them to even live there I suppose. I will take your good advice and connect with a medic when I get there. Thanks for working on making your contributions civil by the way as Neal has.

Tim

Jefferson February 3, 2008 6:13 pm (Pacific time)

Many lives are negatively impacted by illegals Tim (thousands of Americans have been killed just since 2001, ranging from violent crime to drunk driving homicides, to ID theft, etc.). If we simply enforce the laws that only impact us negatively, then why even have laws that regulate immigration. However this will end is anyone's guess, but just because the majority of Americans want our immigration laws enforced hardly makes them racist. I dare say that a good definition of a racist is, e.g. , when one votes for a candidate simply because of their race, and I am not talking about former Washington DC mayor Marion Berry. Or a person cannot be guilty if the defendent is the same race as the jury make-up...not talking about OJ, but the countless acts of jury nullification that are happening in many eastern urban area's. P.S. Tim we may possibly run into each other in Iraq this spring, though pretty unlikely. Make sure you get with a good medic and get the skin protection you need...for parasites indigenous to the different area's you travel in.

Tim King February 3, 2008 4:21 pm (Pacific time)

In the 1930's a man rose to power in Germany because he was able to direct blame on a group, or actually a few groups of people. Adolph Hitler had great success and he nearly took over the world by uniting one group against another. That is all I see here; for all the complaining I see no impact on my personal life. What can I say? Am I just more tolerant? I am sickened by the white people who think they are the only ones entitled to a reasonable amount of success in their lives. It is not a black and white world; there are too many variables. The "us and them" mentality is only a symptom of fear and it is not a fair recognition of the fact that evolution happens and people adapt, move and change to improve their lives. If real movements ever took place against these people I believe many of of would take to the streets over it. Hispanic people hail from all over South and Central America and they share a culture that is extremely native to Southern California. I understand that people in Oregon have more of a problem with it, of course they do. The city had a sign in the 1950's that read "Welcome to Salem, 99% white" and those days are over now. Racism is not tolerated here, and there is no changing the fact that people speak different languages and are in fact, different. So I accept that people want to improve themselves, that education is lacking, that girls do not always conceive children for the sake of it, and that those who do live here have very limited opportunities to learn English. My life is not impacted because a few people with a lot of courage have what it takes to collect everything they own and journey across the desert in search of a better life for themselves.

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'Middle Ground' on the Issue of Illegals?

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