Why Is Israeli Spy Jonathan Pollard Back in the News?

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Big A December 27, 2010 12:50 pm (Pacific time)

Tim, while you might not think so, breaking up a comment into little snippets interrupted throughout by you definitely alters it.

Although I may I snicker at your subtly condescending remarks about how you study Bin Laden and in turn question my familiarity with the understanding and consequences of Saudi Wahhabism, you did give a reasonably relevant answer to my first question.

The same does not apply to my second query. "There is no fairness in Israel", and the balance of your comment does not at all address the issue I articulated. Your comments are about consequences of a lack of peace, not the over riding questions and compromises required to establish it. There are certainly reasons for anguish on both sides, but remember what I said about not having to make peace between friends. Your words are all about what happened today. All about what happened yesterday. History must be understood and respected but constantly looking backward will not build a basis for the establishment of a peaceful tomorrow. The future must be acknowledged as far more important than the past.


An overriding premise, a reasonable basis of which I discussed, must be established to make that happen and put an end to the conflict. That is what I asked you about and what you failed to address. This is the heart and soul of the conflict and has never been answered by the Palestinians in a way that recognizes Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. Only from that point can the details of peace begin to emerge. A one state solution isn't one. That would inevitably lead to civil war. It goes a lot deeper than, "We recognize the State of Israel." In and of itself, that statement, coming from those who also claim a "right of return" to Israel, means little or nothing. I am reminded of Abbas' shrill speech saying, "We don't care what you call yourself", in an attempt to obfuscate the paramount importance of it. Short of major war and the unconditional surrender of one party, that is what it will take - an overriding premise that is acceptable to most representing compromise on both sides. It is possible that if peace between the Jewish nation of Israel and the Arab Palestinians is not established reasonably soon, there could indeed be another major war in the region far worse than any prior for all parties. The US would probably get involved due to Iran, and Israel would certainly be bloodied and badly hurt. The Palestinians, the Syrians and the Iranians would most likely be completely eviscerated, Lebanon too. It would likely be the end of any chance for the Palestinian Arabs to have a state of their own for the foreseeable future. Most would become refugees in foreign lands for a long long time. That would also be a consequence of a lack of peace. Maybe that is indeed what it will take. I hope not.

The issues are complicated, especially with so many outside players constantly poking at the protagonists to promulgate their own interests. There is no fully just solution for both sides to get to two states for two peoples, but they must get there anyway. A peaceful and somewhat reasonable but perhaps not perfectly just solution for either side - that can be done. It must be done.

May the light of kindness shine upon you.

Tim King: Big A, you speak much truth and I am quite sure I don't have all the answers.  Let's pray for peace and do everything in our power to bring it about.  No story has more blood or tears and all people in this region of the world need to decide that peace is the answer.  Concessions are ultimately what is required.  We are talking about the most serious problem on earth and if it can be resolved, the rest of the world will share the positive result.  Truth, Justice and Peace.  

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Big A December 24, 2010 3:22 pm (Pacific time)

It is your forum, but I have given the time and effort to read and respond to what you wrote, so please show the courtesy of publishing this and my prior comments in their entirety without them being chained to limp remarks pathetically struggling to refute every single word I present. I am sure I can articulate the few points I am trying to briefly elucidate far better than you. Some people prefer to read things in their entirety prior to making judgment. I write for them. When you respond it would be far more appropriate, not to mention polite, to do so to a whole.

(Tim King: I did not alter your previous comment, I only responded accordingly.)

Regarding 9/11, you have established yourself as a conspiracy believer and that Bin Laden had nothing to do with it therefore committing no crime on 9/11 against the American people. So, are you good with Osama?

(Usama bin Laden is a Saudi and a member of the Wahhabi faith.  Are you familiar?  These are the pro-burqa, women shouldn't drive set.  They are allies of the US government and that is tragic.  I believe the only reason the relationship with Afghanistan exists with the Saudis is because they all banded together to fight the Soviet Union during the invasion of Afghanistan that lasted from '79 to '89.  I have been in bin Laden's former training camp in Jalalabad.  This is where he was based while fighting the Russians.  I think he is no type of good person, but I have extensively studied the matter.  bin Laden was a national hero in Saudi Arabia after defeating the Soviets, and broke away when the Royal Family chose to use Americans to toss Iraq out of Kuwait in 1991.  He could not believe Saudi Arabia wasn't willing to use his mujihadeen fighters.  This is what pissed the guy off, he was as far as I know, not concerned with the US before that.)

You make several inaccurate statements about who I am while you actually have no clue. Although there are times in the course of human events when it becomes necessary and unavoidable, I hate war. I fervently hope for an equitable peace between Israel and all of her Arab neighbors highlighting the inclusion of the Arab Palestinians. The prerequisite for peace is for all to recognize that the future is far more important than the past and the need is not to make peace between friends. Peace is the seed, only later comes the flower of friendship. In order for peace to occur between the nation of the Jewish people - Israel, and a new nation of the Arab Palestinian people, the conflict must end. That end can not occur without the Palestinians, and the Israelis, ending any further claim to land beyond what they get for a state. Peace however, would have overwhelming advantages for both nations. Although the Palestinian people have never had a country, certainly never outside of the control of Jordan or others, I feel strongly that a Palestinian nation with equal rights for all her people has the right to exist in peace and security with borders approximating the gaza strip and the west bank. I also feel that the Jewish nation of Israel, with equal rights for all her people, has the right to exist in peace and security with borders approximating the pre '67 armistice lines partially represented by the green line. Do you concur?

It is my goal to be polite, you have asked that of me.  There is no fairness in Israel.  Do you want me to dig up the non arguable data for this?  Dr. Alan Sabrosky, Jeff Gates, Alan Hart; these individuals have all addressed the lack of fairness and separate laws for people of different religious faiths.  Perhaps you know that there is a lot of heat on people in Israel who speak out.  I am glad you care about peace, that is a prerequisite for this conversation to have any positive impact.  We cover what I am talking about constantly.  Just yesterday our writer, Mazin Qumsiyeh, was arrested for protesting the destruction of a water cistern.  Ken O'Keefe wrote four days ago about Israel shooting people who collect rocks for building roads, 97 shot since March, 22 in the last month.  What you have to understand is that Israel maintains an unflinching level of control.  All it would take would be a desire to be fair and Israel would see a response.  The Palestinians are routed and subjugated; they don't have control of their lives.  One can not expect people under these conditions, surrounded by a wall and guard towers, to respond in an ideal fashion.

May the light of kindness shine upon you.

And also with you Big A...

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Big A December 24, 2010 2:34 am (Pacific time)

Ahh, I expected you are a conspiracy theorist about 9/11.(WHAT ABOUT TRADE TOWER SEVEN, THE MISSING TRILLIONS IN THE DOD DECLARED BY CHENEY ON 10 SEPT 2001? HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR ALL OF THE EXPERTS WHO CLAIM THE SCENARIO IS IMPOSSIBLE?)

No point in arguing with the vacuous -

the evidence is crystal clear and absolutely overwhelming. Bin Laden proudly took credit for it (NO HE DID NOT, THE WESTERN MEDIA TOLD YOU HE TOOK CREDIT FOR IT AND YOU BELIEVE IT- BIN LADEN SAID HE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT, BUT WESTERN MEDIA CONTROLS WHAT YOU BELIEVE)  and

everyone knows it. It is fact, recorded and accepted by the world - just not you. (NO OFFENSE- BUT THOSE ARE THE WORDS OF A TOTAL SHEEP)

When you deny it, you immediately lose all credibility. (ACTUALLY WE GAIN CREDIBILITY BECAUSE OUR JOB IS TO QUESTION AND CHALLENGE, NOT JUST LAY DOWN AND ACCEPT IT. WHAT YOU APPARENTLY SEEK IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF A CRITICAL THINKER)


And in response to your simply astonishing statement, " Do you think you are so special that people are going to go out of their way to persecute you because of your religion? That is nonsense..."  (ACTUALLY I AM KEENLY AWARE OF THIS TAKING PLACE; THE 'PERP' IS ISRAEL AND THE ZIONISTS.  I HAVE NEWS FOR YOU THOUGH, YOUR RELIGION DOES NOT MAKE YOU A BETTER PERSON THAN THE NEXT, BESIDES, LOOK AT YOU, YOU ARE A WAR PROPONENT.   EVER BEEN SHOT AT IN REAL LIFE?  IT IS A REALLY HARSH THING)

I shout out YES! Open your eyes. Obviously people have been persecuting and butchering others due to their religion for thousands of years.(ACTUALLY IS GREATLY ACCELERATED IN 1947)

There have been countless religious wars throughout history from the earliest times. It likely started with cave men and continues today in many parts of the world. Do you deny what happened in Bosnia and what is happening in Somalia, in Darfur? (OF COURSE NOT, FAR TOO MANY MUSLIMS WERE SLAUGHTERED IN BOSNIA BY CHRISTIANS, YOU HAVE A GOOD POINT THERE HOWEVER I WONDER IF YOU REALLY UNDERSTAND DARFUR; DON'T HANG THOSE PROBLEMS ON RELIGION, IT IS A SIDE NOTE)

Hundreds of thousands died recently and it is all based on religious persecution. (YOU MUST MEAN THE US COALITION LED WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST?  YES, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF INNOCENTS HAVE BEEN SLAUGHTERED IN THE NAME OF GW BUSH'S CRUSADE REVIVAL PROGRAM.)

No matter how you analyze it, what is happening in the Holy Land pales in comparison. Instead of being victim to incongruous statements perhaps you should study philosophy,logic, and history. Do you deny the Shoah - the genocide of 6 million Jews, simply because they were Jews. Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to relive it and the Jews have no intention of ever going gently into the good night again. (DAMN IT, MY DAD'S BEST FRIEND WAS A CONCENTRATION CAMP LIBERATOR, WHAT KIND OF A STUPID QUESTION IS THAT?  DO YOU DENY THAT FISH COME FROM THE SEA?  WHAT ABOUT THE GYPSY'S, ACADEMICS AND OTHER, LIKE HOMOSEXUALS, DO YOU TALK ABOUT THEM ALSO?  JUST CURIOUS.  HOW ABOUT THE THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN FIGHTING MEN WHO DIED TO CRUSH THE NAZI'S, DO YOU SAY YOUR THANKS TO THEM?  HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF I BUILT A SETTLEMENT ON TOP OF YOUR FAMILY HOME?  WHEN THE SHOE IS ON THE OTHER FOOT, THE STORY CHANGES GREATLY.  I HATE NAZI'S AND I HATE ZIONIST OPPRESSION OF MY PALESTINIAN BROTHERS AND SISTERS)

Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people and they have every right to live in peace (OH COME ON, ISRAEL ATTACKS UNARMED PEACE PROTESTERS EVERY FRIDAY IN BIL'IN AND IN OTHER LOCATIONS.  IT TAKES A LOT OF AUDACITY TO TALK ABOUT PEACE WHEN YOUR COUNTRY BEHAVES LIKE AN EVIL OPPRESSIVE GIANT VOID OF HUMANITY.  SELF-PERCEIVED RELIGIOUS SUPERIORITY REALLY MAKES YOU GUYS LOOK BAD)

The Palestinian Arabs have a right to a state too. They do not have a right to both.(OH REALLY, BUT ISRAEL HAD A RIGHT TO STEAL THE LAND IN THE FIRST PLACE? WHY HASN'T ISRAEL BEEN FAIR OR DECENT ABOUT THIS PROCESS?  WHY DO THEY CONSTANTLY HAVE TO CLAIM MORE LAND THAT IS PRIVATELY OWNED BY OTHERS?  THE CULTURE IS GROTESQUE AT BEST.) 

A negotiated settlement ending with two states for two peoples is the best answer for peace. When I hear the Palestinians accept that I will fervently support their cause, but tragically they have not. They continue to be used as pawns by their Arab brothers and remain trapped in the fantasy of overwhelming the Jews of Israel primarily through the myth of a 'right of return'. (OH THIS IS GETTING COMICAL NOW, IS THAT NOT THE WHOLE ANGLE OF THE JEWISH OCCUPATION OF PALESTINE?  EVER HEARD OF LAWRENCE OF ARABIA?  HOW ABOUT THE BALFOUR DECLARATION?  THESE HISTORIC POINTS ARE ALL DETAILED ON SALEM-NEWS.COM, JUST USE THE SEARCH BOX )

Many, as Hamas who still launch hundreds of rockets every month at innocent Israeli civilians, believe the Jews have no right to a nation. (NOW YOU HAVE SLIPPED INTO FULL TILT DISHONEST MODE.  HAMAS STOPPED FIRING ROCKETS YEARS AGO AND THIS IS HEAVILY DOCUMENTED.  THE 'HAMAS ROCKET ATTACKS' WHICH BEGAN IN 2001 KILLED EXACTLY 28 ISRAELI'S.  YOU GUYS SNEEZE AND KILL THAT MANY PALESTINIANS.  YOU WAGE A VERY UNFAIR AND UNBALANCED GAME AND IT SICKENS ME THAT MY TAX DOLLARS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT)

The Jews are a nation (I THOUGHT IT WAS A RELIGION?)  and they are not going anywhere else. (WE'LL SEE ABOUT THAT)  In spite of the constant efforts towards her destruction, (FRIGGIN' JOKE- DO YOU PLAY FANTASY FOOTBALL TOO?) Israel remains a largely benevolent country. (EVIL, ROTTEN, MOROSE, SELF-CENTERED, DANGEROUS EXTREME-RELIGION ZEALOTS THAT IS PURELY HOSTILE AND MURDEROUS AND WITHOUT SHAME OR REMORSE.) She could have utterly destroyed the Palestinian Arabs and the other hostile Arab nations that repeatedly attacked and tried to destroy her. America supports Israel because the Jews have every right to be there and Israel and America share many values as free progressive democratic nations. Everyone, men and women, including all of her Arab citizens, has a right to vote and get an education and receive healthcare in Israel.  (YOUR DAY IS COMING THERE BIG A, I HOPE I AM THERE TOO.   WE KNOW ALL YOU AND YOUR LIKE MINDED FRIENDS WANT TO DO IS WIPE PALESTINE FROM THE MAP.  WELL IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN, NOT TODAY, NOT TOMORROW.  THE WORLD WILL RISE UP AND STOP IT.  I AM MOST SORRY FOR ALL THE GOOD PEOPLE OF ISRAEL WHO ACTUALLY DO WANT PEACE BUT ARE NOT PART OF THE GOVERNMENT OR MILITARY- AND ARE IN NO WAY LIKE YOU) 


And finally, back to the matter at hand - Jonathan Pollard. Yes indeed he was a spy, but he has served a far longer prison term than any other for what he did. ( YOU WOULD OF COURSE EXCUSE IT BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU HAVE NO LOYALTY TO THE USA- ONLY TO ISRAEL, TELL US SOMETHING WE DON'T KNOW, WHAT DO YOU SAY?)

He did not commit treason. No harm came to the US as a consequence of his actions and certainly no one died - your vacuous statements about the "20 trillion dollars" negated because of him (sic) duly noted. And no, other spies caught in the US have not been put to death for less. Most serve a few years and are quietly released or diplomatically traded and return to their native countries.

I despise what Pollard did, (REALLY? ) but he has far more than served his time. (SORT OF LIKE VANUNU?) He has been in prison for 25 years and that is at least 3 to 4 times longer than any other spy for similar crimes. It is long past time he was released. (WE HAVE A WHOLE LIST OF FALSELY CONVICTED PEOPLE TO WORRY ABOUT, POLLARD ISN'T ONE OF THEM.  GOD SAVE THE USA-  AND FREE PALESTINE!  AS IT BEGAN, SEMPER FI AND INSHALLAH)

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Big A December 23, 2010 10:35 pm (Pacific time)

This story is full of broad brushstrokes against Israel and Jonathan Pollard, yet there is no paint. You talk of mysterious secret "signals", possibly sent by Israel, to mysterious and evil "pro-Israel volunteers", implicating Israel was causally involved along with her invisible and non existent Jewish American agents in the horrible attack on America on 9/11 and they subsequently "induced" us to war in Iraq, without any basis whatsoever. This might as well be a discussion about Leprechauns or little green men from Mars. You continue rambling on about how, "Those facts are well known to intelligence agencies worldwide." Yet,
The 9/11 commision, and the US government in entirety, agree who the perpetrators were, and not one of them was Israeli or American or Jewish. They were Al Qaeda terrorists, all moslems, virtually all from Saudi Arabia, meaning none of them are Jewish or Israeli. This is just another anti-Israel and American Jew bashing rant by some highly dubious conspiracy theorist with absolutely nothing but illogical rumor and inuendo to support his conclusions. There is a ton of anti- semitism (specifically, the common usage of the term - think anti-Jewish people - regardless of the condescendence evident in your Editor's note) in this torrent of baseless accusations. You said that Pollard personally "negated" 20 trillion in US defense costs during the cold war. That is patently absurd; a complete fabrication by you. Even Weinburger, at his worst, never said anything resembling that. And subsequently, he and others in the relevent intelligence community of the time have long since refuted any allegations that anything Pollard obtained went to the Soviets.

Editor: My suggestion is that you begin reading and studying this issue.  Do you think you are so special that people are going to go out of their way to persecute you because of your religion?  That is nonsense, just the same lame repetitive excuse for Israel's inhumane and illegal in the world.  War crimes, murder almost daily.  I suspect that the real motivation is simply to wipe Palestine from the map but that grand plan is hitting some snags, and there are many to come.  Pollard is a damned spy and I'm an American, so my inclination is to suggest throwing away the key.  Others have been put to death for less.  As for 9/11, you sound like you have been either asleep or you simply refuse to accept fact.  The only conspiracy theory is the hogwash the Bush administration shoved down everyone's throat.  The only thing Usama bin Laden did was issue a statement after 9/11 saying he had nothing to do with it.  The only government that stood a chance of benefiting from the illegal wars overseas is Israel.  Destabilizing Iraq only benefits Israel.  This makes me sick, it is time for people to come together and really put their collective foot down.  Israel's ridiculous government is in utter need of replacement.  Supporting Israel is supporting the rampant and senseless murder of children.  Change it, make Israel a good place, is it possible?

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MeMyself December 23, 2010 6:42 pm (Pacific time)

No, the intel stolen by Pollard was not given to the Soviets. The intel given to the Soviets came from Aldrich Ames and had nothing to do with Pollard.

Weinberger's anti-Semitism has been well documented. Before his death, he admitted that the secret evidence he gave the court proving the damage Pollard did to US security was all false. Note that Pollard's lawyers were never allowed to see this evidence which has yet to be made public.

One thing that was established is that the intel that Pollard stole should have been given to Israel anyway under treaties signed with the US.

Tying all this into 9-11 is just plain weak and silly.

'Israel and pro-Israelis were the source of the fixed intelligence that induced the U.S. to invade Iraq in response to the provocation of 911.' Proof anyone? We know that Israel did not consider Iraq a threat. They consider Iran a threat. We now know of then secret discussions between Bush and former PM Sharon in which Sharon warns Bush of the consequence of invading Iraq. I refer to former State Department official Lawrence Wilkerson who was in the room and can confirm that Sharon was against the invasion of Iraq.

And please don't waste your time with arguments about Jewish neo-cons such as Paul Wolfowitz. Prior to the Iraq War, Wolfowitz would never have soiled his hands with anything Jewish or Israeli. He only saw Israel as a way to sell the war to a Jewish community who knew better. Note that the Iraq war actually had less support among Jews than other Americans.

Editor: What type of personal ego is required for a person to always jump to anti-semitism?  That implies that somebody specifically gives a sh*t about what religion a person chooses and 99% of the time, the anti-semitism charge is not just false, but blatantly false.  Being an anti-semite means a person is against all humans who evolve from Arab speaking languages, which is not just the Jewish population obviously.  But we know what you mean, it is just not accurate.  Based on what you are saying, I have to wonder what you say to actual Nazi's or people who hate Jewish people for their religion and culture?

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