Taking Deborah Lipstadt Apart

Lipstadt urges Western leaders to dismantle Iran and other Muslim countries. I guess that for the sake of world peace, it is necessary to expose people like Lipstadt.

(LONDON) - In a recent article, Shoa-logist Deborah Lipstadt attempts to reinstate her argument against historical revisionism.

Lipstadt is clearly opposing holocaust deniers whom she also identifies as anti Semites, yet, she fails to define what denial means. She also comes short of suggesting what anti Semitism stands for. I guess that for Lipstadt, ‘deniers’ are those who insist that our past must be revisited, scrutinised and be told from different perspectives. People who hold such views are usually called historical revisionists or simply historians. Yet, historical revisionists are clearly perceived by Lipstadt as anti Semites -- I guess that for Lipstadt , those who dare touch or fiddle with the Jewish past are nothing less than enemies.

The ‘deniers’, according to Lipstdat, are a lively movement that is working vigorously to “distort history and inculcate anti-Semitism”. Yet, it is far from being clear how anyone can ‘distort history’, for history is not a singular set of facts laid down and dictated by one group of people alone. Rather it is an attempt to transform the past into a story aspire to as full a narrative as is possible, drawn from as many points of view and from as wide a body of research as is available. History is an attempt then, to build a narrative. Different people should be entitled to hold different perspectives of their past.

Seemingly, Lipstdat is not happy with it all. She wants the chapter known as the holocaust to become a meta-historical impenetrable narrative. It is not clear to me and to a growing number of academics, artists and ordinary people, why Jewish academics and institutions are so afraid of this particular chapter in history being looked-at and discussed freely.

For some peculiar reason Lipstadt regards herself as a ‘scholar’, yet her engagement with the subject matter is far from being scholarly oriented. Her reading of the Nazi era is utterly embarrassing-- for instance, she says “had the world taken Nazi anti-Semitism more seriously from the outset of the rise of the Third Reich the subsequent tragedy might have been quite different.”

But seems as if the world did actually react very seriously to Nazi anti Semitism -- It basically followed the Nazi agenda. America and Britain closed their gates to Jews, leaving European Jewish refugees to face their fate. Even the Zionists failed to do much to save their European brothers and sisters. It is also clear that the Nazis would not have succeeded in their ethnic cleansing project unless they had been assisted by European communities, governments, and even by Jewish institutions. It seems as if the Nazis were not the ‘only anti Semites;’ they were just more open about it.

Lipstadt’s ignorance knows no limits. She continues, “in the 1930s and 1940s, of course, observers—and the potential victims—could not fathom where Hitler and his cohort’s anti-Semitism might lead.” I guess that the Jewish ‘historian’ doesn’t really know that in the 1930’s and the early 1940’s ‘Hitler and his cohort’ also didn’t know themselves where they were aiming’. We do know that they wanted a Germany free of Jews -- and this is, indeed, pretty outrageous. Yet, it is not that different from the vast majority of Israelis, who want a Palestine that is free of Palestinians.

Lipstadt is convinced that the ‘deniers’ are motivated by “hatred of Jews and their desire to do them harm”. But the truth of the matter is slightly embarrassing -- Historical revisionism is a growing body of knowledge. It doesn’t claim to address ‘the Jewish question’, nor does it offer any political agenda, and neither does it call to harm Jews. However, one may note that rather too often we come across Jewish institutional calls to harm, and even to destroy Arabs and Muslims. I would then, expect Lipstadt to be consistent, and to stand against her own brothers’ and sisters’ genocidal inclinations. But clearly, integrity is not something you should expect from a Professor of Modern Jewish and Holocaust Studies.

When it becomes clear that Lipstadt has nothing clever to say about the subject (or maybe any subject) she pulls the rabbit out of her hat, or should we say, she pulls Ahmadinejad out of her wig. “During the past five years we have heard a stream of Holocaust denial, overt anti-Semitism, and threats against Israel emanate from the mouth of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad… Ahmadinejad’s Holocaust denial is linked directly to his animus toward Israel.”

And this is where Jewish past, present and future are wrapped together into a collective meaning that appears totally impervious to reason, ethics or humanity. It is obviously clear that those who oppose Israeli barbarism may, at a certain stage, look at the Zionist’s raison d'être, namely the holocaust. It is obviously natural for those who detest Israeli lies to scrutinise every Israeli or Jewish narrative – And the question is, what is so wrong with doing so? Why are Jews, or at least some Jews, horrified by the idea that others might be suspicious of aspects of their historical narratives? Why is it so difficult for Lipstadt to accept that Ahmadinejad opposes Israel, and also, questions aspects of the Jewish past?

“In 2009”, Says Lipstadt, “after questioning the existence of the Holocaust, he (Ahmadinejad) declared it was a ploy used by the Jews to get the West to accede to the creation of Israel.” Again, isn’t it a scholarly and legitimate question on behalf of Ahmadinejad? Are not the holocaust and the foundation of the Jewish State inherently linked?

But -- Don’t you worry, it is not Ahmadinejad alone whom the Yeshiva Scholar hates. “Egypt’s Gamal Abdel Nasser spoke of the lie of the 6 million Jews… Spokesmen for Hamas have also engaged in Holocaust denial. Holocaust denial themes can be found in newspapers in many parts of the Arab world, including in Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon.”

Even Mahmoud Abbas was a ‘denier’ according to the Shoa genius, “as a young student, (Abbas) wrote a dissertation that was pure denial.” But guess what, Abbas doesn’t have to worry; Lipsdat has forgiven him already. He (Abbas) “subsequently repudiated his view” and Lipstadt “fully believes his repudiation.” At least, Lipstadt is flexible enough to amend her ‘academic’ views so they fit into the current Israeli political agenda.

I guess that it would make sense to argue that Lipstadt is continuing to fight what is by now a lost battle. Our past is not a Jewish property . When I read Lipstadt’s pseudo academic diatribe, I am convinced that aspects of the Zionist view of history must continue to be scrutinised and debated, for history cannot be handled or censored by any form of Yeshiva scholarship, for Yeshiva ideology is the complete opposite of Western spirit, intellectual debate and openness.

Lipstadt asserts, “seventy years ago people had an acceptable reason to say, ‘We could never fathom that Hitler meant what he said.’ Today we no longer have that luxury. At the very least it behooves us to take Ahmadinejad and those among his fellow Muslim leaders and opinion-makers seriously.”

Seemingly Lipstadt urges Western leaders to dismantle Iran and other Muslim countries in the name of the history she doesn’t allow them to revise or scrutinise. I guess that for the sake of world peace, it is necessary to expose people like Lipstadt and her cohort.

In her final paragraph Lipstadt seems to find out what is wrong with the revisionists, “their Holocaust denial is part of their contemporary political agenda.”

In psychological terminology, the above is defined as projection -- Lipstadt projects her own symptoms on historical revisionists. It is obviously clear that Lipstadt’s ‘holocaust evangelism’ is there to serve her own Zio-centric political agenda.

The question you may want to ask yourself at this stage is, for how long will we let Yeshiva supremacist Ideology determine our vision of our past? I myself believe that time is ripe to say NO to Jewish Ideology and politics. Enough is certainly enough.

Gilad Atzmon was born in Israel in 1963 and had his musical training at the Rubin Academy of Music, Jerusalem (Composition and Jazz). As a multi-instrumentalist he plays Soprano, Alto, Tenor and Baritone Saxes, Clarinet and Flutes. His album Exile was the BBC jazz album of the year in 2003. He has been described by John Lewis on the Guardian as the “hardest-gigging man in British jazz".

Gilad Atzmon's essays are widely published. His novels 'Guide to the perplexed' and 'My One And Only Love' have been translated into 24 languages.

As a member of the Blockheads, Gilad has also recorded and performed with Ian Dury, Robbie Williams, Sinead O'Connor and Paul McCartney. Gilad has also recorded with Robert Wyatt, the Water Boys and many others. Learn more about Gilad by visiting his Website

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Anonymous April 4, 2011 8:39 pm (Pacific time)

here is the link again for the Hitchcock documentary: http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/33e0i7

if it still doesn' come through, it is at stumbleupon.com then "/su/33e0i7"

Editor: I thought I added this, sorry and thanks!

Anonymous April 3, 2011 10:50 pm (Pacific time)

Here is an interesting video narrated by Alfred Hitchcock. There were clearly Christians (look for the crosses on the back of the jackets) and in the video, it is clearly admitted that no one knows the race or religion of any of the victims of the SS at the camp. This is VERY graphic, but at least it argues against the belief that somehow the Nazi's only were after Jewish people.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6076323184217355958#

Anonymous001 April 2, 2011 4:14 pm (Pacific time)

There is a LOT of rhetoric on-line with facts thrown around. Like the number of Jews who supposedly were killed in WWII, there is little actual proof for so much of the information that is used to support both sides of the argument...

So much of what is out there on the Internet has little to no supporting documentation or sources, it seems.

Anonymous April 1, 2011 3:03 pm (Pacific time)

Truth is Anti-Semitic

The headline read, The Crucifixion of Jews Must Stop! The article went on to read, in part, "Six million men and women are dying ... eight hundred thousand children cry for bread. And this fate is upon them through no fault of their own, ... but through the awful tyranny of war and a bigoted lust for Jewish blood. In this threatened holocaust of human life ..."

A threatened extinction of six million people... A holocaust of biblical proportions.

Isn't that an interesting figure?

But wait! This was reported in the American Jewish Press in 1919! I thought the six million Jews killed in the "holocaust" were from World War II NAZIs! Why did "The American Hebrew" use this figure at the end of the first world war as the number of Jews who were threated to be killed? The American Hebrew (New York, written by by Martin Glynn, a former Governor of New York, issue 582 of October 31, 1919) See http://www.iamthewitness.com/Crucifixion-of-Jews.html; See the article at http://www.nsm88.org/articles/holohoax/glynn_article_text.html

Were there even six million Jews in all of Europe in 1919!? There were not.

Two weeks later Felix M. Warburg, the Chairman of the Joint Distribution Committee of American Funds for Jewish War Sufferers was reporting that “The Jews were the worst sufferers in the war”..... “The successive blows of contending armies have all but broken the back of European Jewry and have reduced to tragically unbelievable poverty, starvation and disease about 6,000,000 souls, or half the Jewish population of the earth."

He went on to say “For more than four years the war on the Eastern front was fought largely in the centers of Jewish population” and that “after the cataclysm of the last few years it is too much to expect this Jewry to become self-sustaining in a short twelve-month.” [New York Times November 12, 1919] Edward M.M. Warburg, his son, was the Chairman of this same committee during World War 2.

However, the "six million victims" figure was reported to be the potential for massacre in the Ukraine, not throughout all of Europe. Curiously, the term "holocaust" was used to describe these events in Ukraine. See The American Hebrew (July 25, 1919 page 250) "Race Hatred Envelopes Ukraine": "The starting point of the recent holocaust was Schitomir and spread to many other places."

What was that actual population of Jews in the Ukraine at that time?

There are no specific figures available from the Ukrainian authorities. The most current to that date was "according to the population census of 1897 (the first general census in Russia), which indicated that there were 1,927,268 Jews in the regions, 9.2% of the total population of the Ukraine." There was a emigration during and after the civil war, during the 1917-1921 period. But even with the exodus and the killings that will be detailed next, "the census of 1926 enumerated 1,574,391 Jews in the Ukraine... The Jews then constituted 5,43% of the total population of the Ukraine." See http://www.geschichteinchronologie.ch/eu/ukraine/EncJud_Ukraine02-1917-1971-ENGL.html

The truth is that there were far fewer Jews killed in the Ukraine during this period that the six million figure reported being in jeopardy in America. "During the Revolution of 1917 and the ensuing Russian Civil War an estimated 70,000 to 250,000 civilian Jews were killed in the atrocities throughout the former Russian Empire in this period. During the establishment of the Ukrainian People's Republic (1919–20), pogroms continued to be perpetrated on Ukrainian territory. Only in Ukraine, the number of civilian Jews killed during the period was estimated to be between 35 and 50 thousand. Archives declassified after 1991 provide evidence of a higher number; in the period from 1918 to 1921, "according to incomplete data, at least 100,000 Jews were killed in Ukraine in the pogroms."

See http://www.eastview.com/docs/FR-3050-vstuplenie%20Eng.pdf; See http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Russsian_Civil_War_pogroms.htm

Another source, from the Ukraine, specifies the same general number of deaths: After 1917, in the Civil War and under the regime of S. *Petlyura (the "Socialist" government), about 100,000 Jews were murdered in the Ukraine (1919-20), as in the days of Chmielnicki and with the same cruelty (col. 1517). See http://www.geschichteinchronologie.ch/eu/ukraine/EncJud_Ukraine02-1917-1971-ENGL.html

So, the Six Million figure apparently was used by the American Jewish community in 1919 to incite people to their cause, even though it was HIGHLY inflated. This figure was not accurate then, however did they decide that the number "sounded good" and then decide to use it again 25 year later, again knowing it to be false?

Did 6 Million Really Die in World War II Europe by an extermination campaign instituted by the NAZIs?

»The claim that 5.7 million Jews were murdered, is not true. The number of Jewish victims can only range between 1 and 1.5 million, because there were not more Jews within Hitler's reach.«

Ferdinand Otto Miksche, The End of The Present, Herbig, Munich 1990, page 107 f.

"Otto Miksche, who claims that there were at most 1.5 million Jews within the reach of Adolf Hitler, was a Colonel in the French Army and a close aide to Charles de Gaulle. He lectured as a professor at the war academy in Lisbon as a war specialist and supplied food for thought to the French general staff. For a quarter of a century he wrote scientific books and he had, due to his rank and status, access to all significant archives in the world. Therefore he was able to study the Jewish population statistics very thoroughly. Based on his scientific findings he concluded that 1.5 million Jews, at most, lived in Adolf Hitler's action radius. However, that does not mean that 1.5 million were killed. Despite these facts we are all forced to be subjected to the 6-Million-Creed!"

The following represents the World Jewish population over the period covered by World War II, based on The World Almanac:

World Almanac, 1925, pg. 752: 15,630,000
World Almanac, 1929, pg. 727: 15,630,000
World Almanac, 1938, pg. 510: 15,748,091
World Almanac, 1940, pg. 129: 15,319,359
World Almanac, 1941, pg. 510: 15,748,091
World Almanac, 1942, pg. 849: 15,192,089
World Almanac, 1946: 15,690,000
World Almanac, 1947, pg. 748: 15,680,000
World Almanac, 1949, pg. 289: 15,713,638
World Almanac, 1996, pg. 646: 14,117,000

and

National Council of Churches 1930: 15,600,000
American Jewish Committee Bureau of the Synagogue Council, 1939: 15,600,000
Statistical Handbook of Council of Churches USA 1951: 15,300,000

Total World Population of Jews

America Europe Asia Africa Oceania Total

1938 5,343,319 8,939,608 839,809 598,339 27,016 15,748,091

1948 5,198,219 9,372,666 572,930 542,868 26,954 15,763,638

Diff -145,100 +433,058 -266,879 -55,470 -9,938 +15,547

I submit, again, that there is simply no evidence that six million Jewish people were killed through a mass extermination program by the NAZIs. Again, I am not denying that Jews were targeted as victims by the NAZIs.

While the Jews were a primary focus for the camps, "by 1945, when Allied troops opened the camps, the types of prisoners they encountered form a catalogue of everyone the Nazis vilified. There were Jews from all over Europe, communists, and Polish intellectuals; partisans and resistance fighters from Yugoslavia, France, Ukraine, and elsewhere; Gypsies, gay men, Afro-Europeans, uncooperative Roman Catholic priests, and Protestant pastors; critics of the regime and people who had merely told jokes about Hitler; male and female forced laborers; conscientious objectors; Germans accused of sexual relations with so-called non-Aryans; Jehovah's Witnesses; Italian soldiers who had surrendered to the Allies; convicted criminals; and many others. As this list indicates, Nazi ideology needed enemies, and its aggressive expansion provided an ever-growing supply." See http://www.pbs.org/auschwitz/40-45/background/ideology.html

As written earlier, the vast majority of those killed in camps were Poles. But using pre- and post- war population figures to estimate the number of Poles killed would also overestimate the number of people killed. Several hundred thousand Polish Jews had escaped to the Soviet Union (Page 62, 2001: Heart of Europe: The Past in Poland's Present Oxford University Press, USA; New edition)

At the start of World War II, Poland was partitioned between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union (see: Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact). The war resulted in the death of one-fifth of the Polish population, with 90% or about 3 million of Polish Jewry killed along with approximately 3 million Polish Gentiles (Christians). Additionally, about 200,000 of the Poles that were Jewish were killed because they were in the Military, and these should not be included as part of the Holocaust. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland

Based on this data, there were as many Christians killed by the NAZIs in Poland as there were Jews. It was not a one-sided murdering-spree. The vast majority of the reported Jews during the Holocaust were from Poland.

As I stated, saying that the Holocaust was ONLY about killing Jews is flat-out WRONG. Further, there is no evidence that the total of six million PEOPLE died in Poland, only that the population was missing approximately that many peole AFTER the war. For instance, "From 1939 to 1941 between 100,000 and 300,000 Polish Jews were deported from Soviet-occupied Polish territory into the Soviet Union."

Even if one were to accept the following from Wikipedia, Jews were only about one-third of the total killed by the NAZIs: "Approximately two-thirds of the population of nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust perished. Some scholars maintain that the definition of the Holocaust should also include the Nazis' genocide and mass murder of millions of people in other groups, including Romani (more commonly known in English by the exonym "Gypsies"), Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, homosexuals, people with disabilities, Jehovah's Witnesses and other political and religious opponents, which occurred regardless of whether they were of German or non-German ethnic origin. By this definition, the total number of Holocaust victims would be between 11 million and 17 million people." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

THE RED CROSS v THE DOUBLE-CROSS

The International Red Cross reported that fewer than 300,000 internees of ALL nationalities in ALL German
camps died of ALL causes including old age. This is a tiny fraction of the numbers of those of ALL nationalities who died in allied concentration camps during and AFTER the war’s end.

Of these 300,000 less than half were Jewish and the biggest irony of all? Most died as a direct consequence of typhus epidemics caused by day and night allied bombing raids which turned the German landscape into a bomb-cratered moonscape." See The Golden Horizon, Weidenfeld and Nicholson, London.

***************************************************

Here is a brief timeline that provides some data on the major Jewish populations in Europe. Some populations are omitted, but in total, there were only 5,757,500 Jews in Europe at the start of the NAZI regime. Clearly there was still a huge population of Jews in Europe AFTER the war. See http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/timeline.html

January 30, 1933 - Adolf Hitler is appointed Chancellor of Germany a nation with a Jewish population of 566,000.

March 12/13, 1938 - Nazi troops enter Austria, which has a population of 200,000 Jews, mainly living in Vienna. Hitler announces Anschluss (union) with Austria.

March 15/16 - Nazi troops seize Czechoslovakia (Jewish pop. 350,000).

September 1, 1939 - Nazis invade Poland (Jewish pop. 3.35 million, the largest in Europe).

September 29, 1939 - Nazis and Soviets divide up Poland. Over two million Jews reside in Nazi controlled areas, leaving 1.3 million in the Soviet area.

April 9, 1940 - Nazis invade Denmark (Jewish pop. 8,000) and Norway (Jewish pop. 2,000).

May 10, 1940 - Nazis invade France (Jewish pop. 350,000), Belgium (Jewish pop. 65,000), Holland (Jewish pop. 140,000), and Luxembourg (Jewish pop. 3,500).

October 7, 1940 - Nazis invade Romania (Jewish pop. 34,000).

March 2, 1941 - Nazis occupy Bulgaria (Jewish pop. 50,000).

April 6, 1941 - Nazis invade Yugoslavia (Jewish pop. 75,000) and Greece (Jewish pop. 77,000).

March 19, 1944 - Nazis occupy Hungary (Jewish pop. 725,000).

Editor March 31, 2011 5:22 pm (Pacific time)

To the contributor who used the name Goyim Slave? - Don't you think I should go ahead and publish these as an article? Of course I don't need to use a name as you know. Anyway please drop me an email or comment here and tell me what you think. I have your new comment ready to go, but would rather enter it as an article rather than a comment. Thanks!

Anonymous March 31, 2011 9:36 am (Pacific time)

To be sure, I am anti-NAZIonist and wish for balanced news and information in the U.S. The support and predominant control of the media by Zionist interests should not be refuted. We should not apologize when the truth is on our side... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tebcuRXwHsYandfeature=related "2 + 2 = 4 and until proven otherwise, I will never apologize." AshkeNAZIs need to be told that the truth will set THEM free. Peace among the real Jewish people and the Palestinians has prevailed for thousands of years. In a little over six decades, the Middle East has become a tinderbox due to the racist beliefs of those who were "given" the land that did not belong to them.

Anonymous March 31, 2011 7:04 am (Pacific time)

I guess the statistics are still not fully formed, but the number of Jewish killed were far less than 6 million in concentration camps. When I say killed, I don't mean those that died from natural causes or those who dies from any cause other than pure extermination/murder. The number of Jews may have been upward of one million, but not the six million figure that is tossed around. Most of the statistics were based on the number of Jewish people who were NOT around after the war. Most had moved from NAZI areas or died OUTSIDE of the camps.

As a side note, the hatred of the Polish probably was just as great as the hatred of Jews, and over six million Poles were killed by the NAZIs. Perhaps some people confuse the Poles with Jews, even though the vast majority of Poles who were killed were NOT Ashkenazi Jews. There are statistics that state that of the approximately 3-5 million Poles killed, that 90 percent were Jewish. However, there is no science to back this claim. Many of the people who were called "Jewish" were not given that designation until after the war. There is simply no proof to support the race or religion of the vast majority of those killed.

Further, there were an estimated 21,000,000 refugees, more than half of them “displaced persons” who had been deported from their homelands to perform forced labour. It is due to the fact that these people were simply "gone" after the war that they were given the status of being "exterminated". See http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/648813/World-War-II/53607/Costs-of-the-war

The truth of the matter is that there is NO WAY to really know the exact number of deaths of Jewish people. So much of what we toss around are figures that were based on pure estimates with no support whatsoever.

An official plaque at Auschwitz in the 1980's, stated that some 4 million people were murdered at Auschwitz; a subsequent plaque in the 90's claims a much smaller figure of 1.5 million people. How many of these were pure Jewish? If the people cannot get the figure right who are actually at the most heinous camp, then how are we expected to really know? The Russians first gave the estimate of six million at Auschwitz, some say to "demonize" the NAZIs (as if they needed to be demonized.) That number has become very sticky throughout time, even though there was absolutely no science behind it. The total number of Jewish and non-Jewish killed varies to this day, depending on who "studies" the issue. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp

Death Mills, or Die Todesmühlen, is a 1945 American propaganda documentary film directed by Billy Wilder and produced by the United States Department of War. It was intended for German audiences to educate them about the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime. For the German version, Die Todesmühlen, Hans Burger is credited as the writer and director, while Wilder supervised the editing. Wilder is credited with the English-language version. The narrator notes that people of all nationalities were found in the camps, including people of all religious or political creeds. There is no mention of the particular fate of Jewish people. The film states that 20 million people were killed and describes many of the familiar aspects of the Holocaust, including the medical experiments and the gas chambers. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Mills

From Wikipedia "World War II fatality statistics vary greatly. Estimates of total dead range from 50 million to over 70 million.[1] The sources cited on this page document an estimated death toll in World War II of 62 to 78 million, making it the deadliest war ever. When scholarly sources differ on the number of deaths in a country, a range of war losses is given, in order to inform readers that the death toll is disputed. Civilians killed totaled from 40 to 52 million, including 13 to 20 million from war-related disease and famine. Total military dead: from 22 to 25 million, including deaths in captivity of about 5 million prisoners of war." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
The fact is, most people killed during the war were NOT Jewish. Yet that is the only facet of the war that seems to be discussed today. The war was not about exterminating the Jewish race. It was about a man who wanted world domination of ALL races.

Tim, I did not mean for the comment to seem flippant or to appear that I am anti-Jewish. I am simply tired of the rhetoric that is used to put the non-Jews on a different plane somehow and to minimize the true extent of the 60,000,000 to 80,000,000 +/- total death throughout the world from WWII.

"The figure for the number of Jews who were killed in the Holocaust (or perished from starvation and disease in ghettos and camps) is agreed by most serious historians of the period and of the Holocaust as somewhere in the range 5.7 milllion to 6.0 million (or even slightly higher).

The figure of six million was originally given by SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Hoettl in evidence to the Nuremberg Tribunal in 1946. Hoettl had worked closely with Eichmann and was well placed to give an informed estimate.

Later, figures were worked out by comparing pre and post Holocaust figures for the Jewish populations of the relevant countries (Germany, German-occupied countries and Germany's allies), making allowance for survivors, refugees and the small number who managed to hide successfully.

1. Many Jews perished in the severely overcrowded ghettos (walled in Jewish areas) established by the Nazis in Polish cities and elsewhere.

2. Many were worked to death on inadequate food.

3. Others were massacred in large-scale open air shootings.

4. Large numbers who were gassed in the death camps.

5. Especially in 1944-1945, many died from killer diseases, such as typhus, that swept through the hopelessly overcrowded camps that Jews were forced to live in."

See http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_Jews_died_in_World_War_2

Some scholars maintain that the definition of the Holocaust should also include the Nazis' systematic murder of millions of people in other groups persecuted and killed by the Nazis. Over 8 MILLION Russian civilians were killed by the NAZIs. Doesn't this make the Jewish number pale by comparison?

So, without denying the fact that Jewish people were killed, the exact numbers will actually NEVER be known. My point all along is that many others died at the hands of the NAZIs.

Tim King: I had a feeling you might take the time to explain your point, and I must say you do it well. I will open my eyes in this direction; this might be the day that I accept something that is hard to accept and fathom. What you cite is in keeping with other credible evidentiary data. I have to say that the piles of bodies I saw in those photos certainly did not disclose the religion of the dead. Thanks for putting this together.

Goyim Slave? March 30, 2011 7:32 pm (Pacific time)

Of the approximately 20 million people that died throughout the course of WWII, less than 500,000 were Jews. In camps, they were less than 25% of all people who died. The Holocaust is not a "Jew thing" alone, yet that is what they want the Goyim to believe so that we continue to give them the hundreds of billions - or Trillions - we have given them in the past. They openly call us their slaves, yet we remain silent.

Editor: It is not a crime to discuss the Holocaust and I frequently remind people that Jewish people comprise only a small percentage of the civilian death toll of WWII. However, I would ask your source for the 500k number versus six million. For the record, we have been clear for years at Salem-News.com that we are 100% behind the humane treatment of Palestinians (and all other people) but I believe it is true that we have to be somewhat sensitive about certain things. One of those, in my opinion, is removing five and a half million people from a casualty list without some surprisingly solid revelation. My dad's best friend, whose name was Basil Dell, was a concentration camp liberator and a photographer. I saw a lot of horrible images growing up and they exposed me to the bitter reality of Hitler's death camps. I really believe that those camps were primarily for the genocide of Jews, they were not only a fourth of the people killed there.

We are frequently called names like anti-Semitic because we believe the Palestinian cause is worth standing behind and fighting for, I want to be clear that our advocacy is for one race and one race only, with no exclusions; we are behind the human race and we could care less what ethnic background or religion a person is represented by

Dennis L. March 30, 2011 5:41 pm (Pacific time)

I beg to differ on one point. It was evidently clear in the Nazi rhetoric of the pre-war years that Jews, using the Nazi's own words, faced "annihilation," "extermination," "destruction." The Evian Conference made it crystal clear that the world was closed to Jewish immigration. Many leading Zionists focused only on Palestine. Others, wanted any potential site of refuge. It is not a coincidence that Kristallnacht occurred 4 months after Evian. In addition, Hitler was very clear in private conversations and in Mein Kampf that he would kill the German Jews if he ever came into power. Das Schwarze Korps, the official paper of the SS announced in late 1938 that they intended to force Jews into ghettos in which they would have to resort to crime and would be dealt with "fire and sword."

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