Reverend Benny & Mister Sid's At Your Service #42

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Ray May 3, 2009 1:08 pm (Pacific time)

Regarding the poster who said thousands of our military are water boarded each year as part of their training appears to be an over estimation but it is well into the hundreds. Generally those that are pilots, in elite military units, and in the different intelligence gathering services (like the NSA and CIA) will be water boarded. I also was water boarded, and even though it was in a controlled environment, it was quite effective. From my reading of the public record it has been around 5 years since we used this procedure on terrorists. Below is a brief comment by a fighter pilot and a link to a narrative many of you might find enlightening about survival training for just one of our military units, navy pilot S.E.R.E. training: "Maybe forty or so students per week, let’s say 100 minimum per month, 1,200 per year for over twenty or thirty years? It could be as many as 40,000 students trained in S.E.R.E. and “tortured” at the direction of, and under the watchful eye of the Congressional Majorities on both sides of the aisle. Be careful that the 40,000 of us who you have “tortured” don’t come after you today with tort claims. I heard it pays about $3 million per claim." http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=23220

Editor: Ray, thanks for your comment.  My point is to keep people from thinking that soldiers and Marines are waterboarded as part of their standard military training.  I also (no offense) don't think any type of waterboard "training" is connected to reality.  I'm sure they go over it but as far as each military student actually being strapped to a board and tortured in even a simulated setting is hard for me to buy.  The bottom line according to people who have actually participated in torture, is that there is not a method of extracting information with less credibility.  People will say or do anything to halt intense pain, even the bravest I'm sure after a while.  So now consider Abu Graib and Gitmo and all of the people who have been wrongly and falsely locked up.  Why did this happen?  Because people that the "brave" Americans are torturing were selling out their neighbors or anybody they could name, and this led to the false imprisonment and more torture.  What a loser of an idea.  If an actual American tortured anyone, then they are cut from the same cloth as the Nazi's who followed every order in the Third Reich.  Give it up, it is wrong, there are no humane excuses for torturing another human being .  It is the devil's work.  

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Glen May 2, 2009 3:49 pm (Pacific time)

Cathy, "Thousands of our troops are water boarded every year as a part of their training..." Show me some documentation on that. You still haven't answer me. Are you a Christian? If so, then how to you square your support for torture with the teachings of Jesus Christ?

Editor: Glen, I can assure you that is not the case, Americans are not waterboarded as part of their training unless they are in circles that are very specific to interrogation, etc.  I speak with recent serious contact with the military under my belt as you know.  There is no humane rationalization for the defense of torture; it is wrong all of  the time.  Perhaps these folks need to go to church and study this treasured thing called "The Golden Rule".  I fear it is something most of these torture supporters haven't heard of and they should look it up, it might inspire them.

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Cathy Rathjen May 2, 2009 9:31 am (Pacific time)

Reasonable people can disagree but the public should know that thousands of our troops are water boarded every year as part of their training, but not until it was done to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed -- mastermind of the 9/11 attack on America -- were some consciences shocked. As non-uniformed combatants, all of the detainees at Guantanamo could have been summarily shot on the battlefield under the Laws of War. There is now proof that many who have been released from the detention center in Cuba have been caught back on the battlefield. That is outragous. Only three terrorists -- who could have been shot -- were water boarded. I guess for some people they also cannot believe they live in a country where people would put a caterpillar in a terrorist's cell. If Bush had an agenda it is moot now, but he did hold up his responsibility to protect us here in the homeland. Will Obama? We shall see, but soon we will be hearing about our best and brightest intelligence personnel leaving government service. Who will replace them? I have no personal background in intelligence gathering but since my son's murder on 9/11/2001 I have been in close contact with those who do. There are people out in the weeds right now protecting us, they are the bravest people I have ever met, and they are being maligned by people who they have made safe through their incredibly dangerous sacrifices. Ironic and extremely sad. By just releasing the full documentation that was begun by Obama's declassification can the public get a better understanding. This is nothing more than a political stunt until that happens.

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Glen May 1, 2009 10:55 pm (Pacific time)

"We were only acting under orders." That was what the Allies heard from the Germans who committed atrocities during WWII. That wasn't an acceptable excuse then, and it isn't one now. Every man knows the difference between right and wrong in his heart regardless of orders from his superiors.

Cathy, are you a Christian? What would Jesus recommend? "Love thy neighbor." "The meek shall inherit the earth." "Turn the other cheek." No mention of torture in any of that.

If you're not a Christian do you consider yourself a patriot and honor the Constitution as the law of the land? You might want to check out the 8th Amendment which prohibits cruel and unusual punishment.

If that doesn't appeal then check out the Geneva Convention which prohibits the use of torture. Torture is a war crime. There is never an excuse for torture. It is the tool of sadists.

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Cathy Rathjen May 1, 2009 9:25 am (Pacific time)

I am appalled at those who would pursue a political agenda at the expense of our national security. To think that prosecuting those who were involved in protecting Americans after the horror of 9/11 (I lost my eldest son that day) could be in any way beneficial to our country is a serious tragedy. If an individual who was responsible for the death of thousands (we caught the 9/11 planner) of Americans received harsh interrogation in order to save the lives of others in our country, it was well worth it. If the government wants to expose these supposed atrocities, then why not release the documents that allow the public to see the information that was obtained and how it ultimately saved lives? I guess it is easier to sit and judge those who were faced with the reality of protecting our country after the worst attack terrorist attack in our nation's history. As a mother of two surviving children, I am thankful every day that decisions were made that kept my family and country safe. Unfortunately, I think politics is now getting in the way of national security. That will only hurt us in the long run.

Editor: Cathy, You believe politics are "now getting in the way of national security"?  You don't believe Bush's politics were part of his agenda?  Most people believe his entire eight years was nothing but that.  It is tragic that your son died, and it is also tragic that Bush attacked Iraq and over 4k Americans and possibly over a million Iraqi citizens have died because Bush had a personal agenda to deal with.

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Anonymous May 1, 2009 7:51 am (Pacific time)

Glen all Ray wrote was let's put it all on the table and let the public review the info. No doubt we all have different viewpoints on this matter (some are more informed and experienced than others) but bringing sunshine to it is the correct process. Obama just released one part of the documents, and I also have seen intelligence personnel go on different media and give their "witnessed" interpretations of how water-boarding a few terrorists saved countless lives, including four former CIA heads! Why do some people fear an informed public? And yes Congress has known about this ongoing interrogation technique for many many years. Why have they all remained quiet? Obviously Pelosi is either a liar or an incompetent...maybe both?

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Glen April 30, 2009 9:07 pm (Pacific time)

I bet torture would save us from the swine flu if we only knew which pigs to waterboard. Turn in your white hat, Ray, and don your black hood. You already know the rules: It's not wrong if we do it. BTW, "it has been reported..." is a weasel word phrase. It has been reported that a UFO landed in a field and offered a farmer potato pancakes, but that "don't make it so." So tell me, Ray, did you enjoy the comic? I mean, could you identify with Gerald? What would you do if you were in his shoes?

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Ray April 30, 2009 1:26 pm (Pacific time)

So-called "harsh interrogation techniques," including water-boarding have been used on our military during training for many decades. This means that congress has given the "green light" for this torture on are own people. So if we pursue prosecution, what do we do with all those who okayed this procedure? Even by omission of action, like "not" registering a complaint? What would be the statute of limitations? During the "Discovery" process the nation could find out how many Americans (and terrorists) have been killed via this torture. How many have been seriously injured, including emotional and mental injuries. Bringing forth witnesses who could testify about the procedure would no doubt become interesting. I of course would want to see if there is proof, one way or another, if the harsh interrogation on the terrorists provided info that saved American lives. It has been reported that it has saved thousands of lives by stopping the attack on LA's Liberty Bldg. Maybe there are more events that were stopped? It has been reported that Top Secret documentation exists that claims these interrogations did save Americans. Let's find out what they actually claim. Having all this in the public domain would allow all interested parties to form their own conclusions rather than having others sway them via limited and slanted information.

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